In my continuing series on the ancestry of Sarah Ferguson, we come to position 504 (and also position 510) William FitzWilliam (1719-1756), 3rd Earl FitzWilliam
and note that in his ascent he has a grandfather "John Stringer of Sutton upon Lound" with no further particulars.
John Stringer, esq of Sutton-cum-Lound, Notts was born sometime between 1666 and 1684. He married Elizabeth Pelham, bap 1 Sep 1680 on 6 Jul 1699 at St Pancras, London and they had their only surviving child Anne sometime between 1700 and 1704 who married John FitzWilliam, 2nd Earl FitzWilliam on 17 Sep 1718
John Stringer was the son of Francis Stringer, esq of Sutton-cum-Lound by his wife Elizabeth Newton. There is a Patron Sheet submission in the IGI stating that their marriage took place on 30 Nov 1665 at Haydor, co Lincs. which at seems seems like a likely time and county as her parents were of that county.
Francis bap Apr 1633 at Sutton cum Lound was the son of Nicholas Stringer of that place, by his wife Alice South whom he had married 5 Mar 1630/1 at Kelstern where she had been baptised 3 Mar 1608.
Other than Francis they had at least one other child Anne who married Sir Thomas Hutton of Nether Poppleton and had issue.
Meanwhile Elizabeth Newton was the daughter of John Newton, 2nd Bart of Barrs Court, co Gloucs and of Gunwardby, co Linc . John had been born 9 Jun 1626 and died 31 May 1699 and is buried at Bitton, Gloucs. Elizabeth's mother was Mary Eyre daughter of Sir Gervase Eyre by his wife Elizabeth Babington.
By this route Elizabeth Newton is a 16th generation descendent of the English throne.
There is some more known ascent to the South family from this point that I had casually glanced at prior to finding the evidences of this ascent, but didn't copy out. It's in one of the Vis, I'll have to look again for it.
This new line adds some interesting new ancestry for Sarah Ferguson.
A few moments ago I had mentioned that Anne (Stringer) FitzWilliam (ancestress of Sarah Ferguson, Duchess of York), the wife of William 3rd Lord FitzWilliam, had further known ascent through one of her great-grandmothers Alice South. I had said that I'd seen it in one of the Vis. I believe where I saw it was actually in the Leics. Ped.
Interestingly it runs head-first into one of the families I'd researched long ago, the Welbys of Moulton.
Alice South "Eldest daughter" bap 3 May 1608 at Kelstern married Nicholas Stringer esq of Sutton-cum-Lound, Notts on 5 Mar 1630/1631 at Kelstern.
Alice was the daughter of Francis South, Knt of Fotherby and Kelstern by his *second* wife Anne Irby. They had married 9 Jun 1606 at Whaplode which is where her father was then living.
Sir Francis South and Anne Irby had exactly or at least eleven children (in 13 years!) before her untimely ? death 12 May 1620
Sir Francis South had married firstly Elizabeth Meres by whom he had four daughters only, but the two eldest died as infants. The two remaining, Barbara South bap 1603 married Everard Buckworth of White Hall and Frances South bap 1604 married David Skipwith of Utterby.
By this second wife Anne Irby, Sir Francis South had his son and heir Sir John South of Kelstern, who would marry up by wedding Margaret Clifton, daughter of Gervase Clifton Bart of Clifton Hall by his wife Frances Clifford.
Frances Clifford's father, was at that time the Earl of Cumberland, so this was quite a step up for the South family. Sir John South and Margaret Clifton married by 1637 as their eldest child Clifton was bapt 18 Nov 1637 at Kelstern and died, probably there as well, by 1648
Another child by Anne Irby, Anne South married "Gervase Clifton, Knt of Clifton". I am not yet sure if this means here that she married her brother-in-law ? or did she marry her brother's father-in-law ? At any rate Anne (South) Clifton d.s.p. 1639
Another child by Anne Irby, Joan South, married William Jessop of Broom Hall; and her brother Charles South married Sarah Butler, daughter of Gregory.
So much for that generation.
Alice (South) Stringers four grandparents were:
John South of Keelby and of Fotherby died 17 Apr 1591 buried at Keelby
Alice Twidale bur 4 May 1605 aet 60 Keelby, Will dated 27 Apr 1605, proved (CPC) 19 Jun 1605
Anthony Irby of Whaplode died Sep 1625
Alice Welby died Apr 1602
Anthony Irby and Alice Welby were also the parents of that Sir Anthony Irby who in Feb 1603 married Elizabeth Peyton and were thus ancestral to Sarah Ferguson by further descent.
Leo has the marriage of Anthony Irby to Alice Welby and a date of 22 Dec 1575.
Alice Welby's ascent can then be traced in 12 steps back to the English throne through her mother, or 14 steps through her father.
On Jul 2, 1:23 pm, wjhonson <wjhon...@aol.com> wrote:
> In my continuing series on the ancestry of Sarah Ferguson, we come to > position 504 (and also position 510) William FitzWilliam (1719-1756), > 3rd Earl FitzWilliam
> and note that in his ascent he has a grandfather "John Stringer of > Sutton upon Lound" with no further particulars.
> John Stringer, esq of Sutton-cum-Lound, Notts was born sometime > between 1666 and 1684. He married Elizabeth Pelham, bap 1 Sep 1680 on > 6 Jul 1699 at St Pancras, London and they had their only surviving > child Anne sometime between 1700 and 1704 who married John > FitzWilliam, 2nd Earl FitzWilliam on 17 Sep 1718
There are, of course, a great number of royal lines for Elizabeth Pelham....see Leo's site for a beginning.
> John Stringer was the son of Francis Stringer, esq of Sutton-cum-Lound > by his wife Elizabeth Newton. There is a Patron Sheet submission in > the IGI stating that their marriage took place on 30 Nov 1665 at > Haydor, co Lincs. which at seems seems like a likely time and county > as her parents were of that county.
> Francis bap Apr 1633 at Sutton cum Lound was the son of Nicholas > Stringer of that place, by his wife Alice South whom he had married 5 > Mar 1630/1 at Kelstern where she had been baptised 3 Mar 1608.
The Stringer line can be carried back about four generations further via the Visitations of Nottinghamshire (HSP v. 4, available on Google Books) and in a more complete pedigree in "Hunter's Pedigrees" (HSP v. 88, snippet view only on Google).
> Other than Francis they had at least one other child Anne who married > Sir Thomas Hutton of Nether Poppleton and had issue.
Anne Stringer and Thomas Hutton are ancestors of Princess Diana.
> Meanwhile Elizabeth Newton was the daughter of John Newton, 2nd Bart > of Barrs Court, co Gloucs and of Gunwardby, co Linc . John had been > born 9 Jun 1626 and died 31 May 1699 and is buried at Bitton, Gloucs. > Elizabeth's mother was Mary Eyre daughter of Sir Gervase Eyre by his > wife Elizabeth Babington.
> By this route Elizabeth Newton is a 16th generation descendent of the > English throne.
> There is some more known ascent to the South family from this point > that I had casually glanced at prior to finding the evidences of this > ascent, but didn't copy out. It's in one of the Vis, I'll have to > look again for it.
Take a look at various volumes of Maddison's Lincolnshire Pedigrees (HSP vols. 50-52 and 55). However, the royal connection which can be constructed there (via Thimbleby, Welby, and Irby to South) is likely invalid, because the chronology suggests that Anne Welby, wife of Anthony Irby, was apparently daughter of Charles Welby by an unknown wife other than Elizabeth Thimbleby.
> John South of Keelby and of Fotherby died 17 Apr 1591 buried at Keelby
> Alice Twidale bur 4 May 1605 aet 60 Keelby, Will dated 27 Apr 1605, > proved (CPC) 19 Jun 1605
> Anthony Irby of Whaplode died Sep 1625
> Alice Welby died Apr 1602
> Anthony Irby and Alice Welby were also the parents of that Sir Anthony > Irby who in Feb 1603 married Elizabeth Peyton and were thus ancestral > to Sarah Ferguson by further descent.
> Leo has the marriage of Anthony Irby to Alice Welby and a date of 22 > Dec 1575.
> Alice Welby's ascent can then be traced in 12 steps back to the > English throne through her mother, or 14 steps through her father.
> Will Johnson
In another post in this thread, I mentioned that there was some question whether Alice Welby, wife of Anthony Irby, was the daughter of Thomas Welby by Elizabeth Thimbleby (who was of royal descent) or by an unknown first wife of Thomas Welby. I think the argument for this is that Alice (said to be the third daughter) was married in 1575 and is said to have already been a widow of NN Tasher. Also, her next elder sister Mary is said to have mar. in 1572. Since Thomas Welby and Elizabeth Thimbleby married in 1560, either Thomas was very big into child marriages (presumably including his 1st daughter Katherine who mar. Sir Robert Pulvertoft), or there must have been a first wife who was the mother of these daughters.
Obviously this could be resolved if baptismal records could be found for these daughters. FWIW, Douglas Richardson in RPA and MCA reaches the same conclusion regarding an known first wife (not that this makes it right, of course!). But, if so, the royal connection through Alice Welby's mother disappears.
What is the royal connection for Thomas Welby? I know that he has Thimbleby ancestry himself, but I can't immediately connect him to his [known] wife's Thmbleby relations, which would hive him a royal descent [or two].
> What is the royal connection for Thomas Welby? I know that he has > Thimbleby ancestry himself, but I can't immediately connect him to his > [known] wife's Thmbleby relations, which would hive him a royal > descent [or two].- Hide quoted text -
> - Show quoted text -
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Hmm I have something wrong here, but here goes. Thomas Welby of Moulton son of Catherine Bray, daughter of Joan Halliwell, daughter of Jane Norbury
having said that, the chronology needs to be fixed up in my database because something is screwy.
Kinda like you said with the Welby connection. I need to go back and review the documentation (as it is) and see if I can fix these connections better.
> > What is the royal connection for Thomas Welby? I know that he has > > Thimbleby ancestry himself, but I can't immediately connect him to his > > [known] wife's Thmbleby relations, which would hive him a royal > > descent [or two].- Hide quoted text -
> > - Show quoted text -
> -------------
> Hmm I have something wrong here, but here goes. > Thomas Welby of Moulton son of > Catherine Bray, daughter of > Joan Halliwell, daughter of > Jane Norbury
> having said that, the chronology needs to be fixed up in my database > because something is screwy.
> Kinda like you said with the Welby connection. > I need to go back and review the documentation (as it is) and see if I > can fix these connections better.
> Will Johnson
According to Maddison's Lincolnshire Pedigrees (HSP 55:1313), Catherine Bray was the dau. of Thomas [or John] Bray of Middlesex. In 1524 she was the executrix for the will of her late husband Thomas Welby, who was declared a lunatic in 1521 (having made a will dated 6 Sept 1520 - while he was still sane?) and had been 8 years old in 1496. Catherine remarried NN Hall.
Joan/Jane Halliwell was the wife of Sir Edmund Bray, 1st lord Bray - not Thomas or John Bray.
Yes I agree that Alice is perilously perched on the very edge of motherhood if she is to be the daughter of Elizabeth Thimelby.
The boundary is set by A) Thomas Welby of Moulton married Elizabeth Thimelby 20 Jul 1560 B) Alice was already a "Mrs Tash, widow" when she married Anthony Irby on 22 Dec 1575 C) They had a child in 1576 or 1577 (two sources are conflicting here)
That Alice is a Welby, and is a daughter of a Thomas Welby of Moulton, esq cannot be questioned. This is because her own son, states this on his own MI, or rather the MI was probably put up by Alice's grandson. But at any rate, that seems the least likely to be in error here.
Anthony Irby's birthrange is wide-open, I know nothing useful to pin it down. His father Thomas was buried at Whaplode 30 Apr 1561. Anthony had at least five (not four) sisters and he himself had a son born in 1576 or 1577.
As for Alice Welbye, if we believe A) above then we also have to face that Jane (Welby) Ayscough is stated as being bap 26 May 1561 at Moulton. Alice here is forced to be baptised in 1562, Thomas in 1563 and Richard in 1564 which seems barely possible. And then Alice married by age 13, widowed, married again and a mother at least once if not twice by 1577.
My gut feeling is that there is something wrong with "Who are the parents of Thomas Welby who married Elizabeth Thimelby". Alice is more likely to be his sister, and both the children of somebody also named Thomas Welby of Moulton.
