> Jeff

> > Hi. I've got Heraldry - Sources, Symbols and Meanings (1976); is that
> > it?

> While that's a really good general heraldry book, it is most
> definitely not an ordinary to Siebmacher.

> David

> > Hi all,
> > I am looking for a book I believe by Ottfried Neubecker  which is an
> > ordinary based on seibmacher but I am ubable to remember the name, can
> > any one here help out?

> Jeff

> The ordinary of the burger arms in Siebmacher (not including the
> nobility) are in Ottfried Neubecker: "Grosses Wappen-Bilder-Lexikon,
> Der bürgerlichen Geschlechter Deutschlands, Österreichs und der
> Schweiz", pub. Batterburg Verlag, Augsburg, 1992, ISBN 3-89441-030-2).
> If you need a specific look up I may be able to help.

> Derek Howard

> 2) One of the problems is that there is no commonly accepted German
> blazoning, every one of the big collectors used his own method.

> 3) As far as Siebmacher is concerned we have to be aware that there is
> the "Old" and the "New Siebmacher" (OS, NS).
> a) The OS(1605-1806) consisting of illustrations only has therefore no
> original blazoning, organized partially by areas. Rietstap(RI) (and
> Renesse) seems to have included a number of them and the first time ever
> he blazoned them, of course in French, completely depending on the small
> illustrations, which are not always correct and  sometimes misleading
> and difficult to define.
> b) The NS(1854-1967) has illustrations and blazonings and is organized
> regionally. Of this RI might have included volumes which appeared before
> 1884 (edited by Gritzner(GR), Heyer v.Rosenfeld and ??).
> I have no idea whether RI used the GR blazoning for his French version
> or just the illustrations.

> 4) I did as yet meticulously check Hanns Jäger-Sunstenau's General-Index
> (GI) against RI, and I don't think anyone else did until today.
> The OS appeared in 5 parts and 12 supplements, altogether some 19500
> entries in the GI, of which about 7500 (38%) are missing in the RI and I
> can't tell which method of selection RI used.
> By the way the pecular "genealogical" sorting (B=P, D=T, ..) of the GI
> makes it difficult for non-Germans to use.

> Regards
> FvR

> > 1) Generally speaking there are no such ordinaries except some regional
> > attempts.

> > 2) One of the problems is that there is no commonly accepted German
> > blazoning, every one of the big collectors used his own method.

> > 3) As far as Siebmacher is concerned we have to be aware that there is
> > the "Old" and the "New Siebmacher" (OS, NS).
> > a) The OS(1605-1806) consisting of illustrations only has therefore no
> > original blazoning, organized partially by areas. Rietstap(RI) (and
> > Renesse) seems to have included a number of them and the first time ever
> > he blazoned them, of course in French, completely depending on the small
> > illustrations, which are not always correct and  sometimes misleading
> > and difficult to define.
> > b) The NS(1854-1967) has illustrations and blazonings and is organized
> > regionally. Of this RI might have included volumes which appeared before
> > 1884 (edited by Gritzner(GR), Heyer v.Rosenfeld and ??).
> > I have no idea whether RI used the GR blazoning for his French version
> > or just the illustrations.

> > 4) I did as yet meticulously check Hanns Jäger-Sunstenau's General-Index
> > (GI) against RI, and I don't think anyone else did until today.
> > The OS appeared in 5 parts and 12 supplements, altogether some 19500
> > entries in the GI, of which about 7500 (38%) are missing in the RI and I
> > can't tell which method of selection RI used.
> > By the way the pecular "genealogical" sorting (B=P, D=T, ..) of the GI
> > makes it difficult for non-Germans to use.

> > Regards
> > FvR

> Thanks all for this information. Is either of the seibmachers
> available either as a book or on CD? If so where might one aquire a
> copy and what would be a reasonable cost?
> Cheers

> Jeff