I apologize for a beginners question, but.. My wife and I disagree on when a new suit should be forcing. I prefer a new suit to be forcing when it has a higher rank (S over H), and not forcing when a lower rank (C over H). I also don't like any forces against an overcall. My wife prefers all new suits forcing. What is best.
On May 14, 11:50 pm, "Tim Brown" <timothybrow...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I apologize for a beginners question, but.. My wife and I disagree on when a > new suit should be forcing. I prefer a new suit to be forcing when it has a > higher rank (S over H), and not forcing when a lower rank (C over H). I also > don't like any forces against an overcall. My wife prefers all new suits > forcing. What is best.
In the long term, you will survive longer by listening to your wife.
>I apologize for a beginners question, but.. My wife and I disagree on when >a new suit should be forcing. I prefer a new suit to be forcing when it has >a higher rank (S over H), and not forcing when a lower rank (C over H). I >also don't like any forces against an overcall. My wife prefers all new >suits forcing. What is best.
It has been a basic standard bidding principle "forever" that new suits by responder are forcing and agreements to the contrary are bound to create unmanageable auctions and guessing.
As to overcalls, it is subject to agreement whether you want to play "new suit forcing over partner's overcall" not forcing. Both have advantages and disadvantages. I prefer "forcing by unpassed hand, constructive nonforcing by passed hand"
In article <cqOWj.23733$5b3.15283@trnddc05>, Tim Brown <timothybrow...@verizon.net> writes:
>I apologize for a beginners question, but.. My wife and I disagree on when a >new suit should be forcing. I prefer a new suit to be forcing when it has a >higher rank (S over H), and not forcing when a lower rank (C over H). I also >don't like any forces against an overcall. My wife prefers all new suits >forcing. What is best.
Since 1H-2C forces the bidding to a higher level than 1H-1S, most systems say that the 2C response requires a stronger hand than does 1S. It varies with the system that you are playing, but it is common to require something like 10 HCP for a response at the two level, whereas a response at the one level promises no more than 6. So if anything you have it the wrong way round. -- John Hall "Think wrongly if you please, but in all cases think for yourself." Doris Lessing
: I apologize for a beginners question, but.. My wife and I disagree on when a : new suit should be forcing. I prefer a new suit to be forcing when it has a : higher rank (S over H), and not forcing when a lower rank (C over H). I also : don't like any forces against an overcall. My wife prefers all new suits : forcing. What is best. :
It is always safer to listen to the wife. Beware the rolling pin!
However... one exception... 1H - 1S 1NT - 2D
After a 1NT rebid (limited to within 3 points) a rebid in a lower suit would be weak, to play. Longer diamonds here. Kxxx, x, QJxxxx, xx
On May 15, 12:19 am, bruno <lar...@gmail.com> wrote:
> On May 14, 11:50 pm, "Tim Brown" <timothybrow...@verizon.net> wrote:
> > I apologize for a beginners question, but.. My wife and I disagree on when a > > new suit should be forcing. I prefer a new suit to be forcing when it has a > > higher rank (S over H), and not forcing when a lower rank (C over H). I also > > don't like any forces against an overcall. My wife prefers all new suits > > forcing. What is best.
> In the long term, you will survive longer by listening to your wife.
On May 14, 11:50 pm, "Tim Brown" <timothybrow...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I apologize for a beginners question, but.. My wife and I disagree on when a > new suit should be forcing. I prefer a new suit to be forcing when it has a > higher rank (S over H), and not forcing when a lower rank (C over H). I also > don't like any forces against an overcall. My wife prefers all new suits > forcing. What is best.
There is no single answer to this. Here are some of the more common situations:
- You open 1 of a suit. Partner responds in a new suit. It's forcing, whether higher or lower. - You open 1 of a suit. Partner responds 1 of a new suit or 1NT. You rebid in a new suit. It's nonforcing if it's lower than your first suit, forcing if it's higher. For example, 1D - 1S - 2C is nonforcing (otherwise how would you bid with 5-5 minimum opener?) but 1C - 1S - 2D is forcing (it can't show just a minimum opener, because then you'd be too high when a minimum responder just returned to opener's first suit) - You open 1 of a suit. Partner responds 1 of a new suit. You rebid 1NT. Partner rebids 2 of a third suit. It's nonforcing if it's lower than partner's first suit, forcing if it's higher. For example, 1D - 1S - 1NT - 2H is nonforcing (otherwise how would responder bid with a 5-5 minimum?) but 1D - 1H - 1NT - 2S is strong (which is okay because if responder is weak and 5-5 he'll start with 1D - 1S instead, and if he's weak and 5-4 there's no need to look for the spade fit because it's not there: opener would have rebid 1D - 1H - 1S if it were). - You open 1 of a suit. Partner responds 2 of a new suit. You rebid in a third suit. It's forcing, whether higher or lower, even if you're not playing 2-over-1 as forcing to game. Partner's 2-over-1 promised another bid unless your rebid is 2 of your suit, 3 of hers, or 2NT.
New-suit responses to overcalls are a matter of agreement. Usually they are "constructive", i.e. not forcing, but encouraging. If you need to force, you can bid the opponent's suit.
New-suit responses to weak 2 openers are also a matter of agreement, but if you play them as forcing, I believe you have to alert that (in the ACBL).
Many of the regulars on this group are (much) more expert than I am, so perhaps there will be other opinions, but I think these are what's standard, at least in the U.S. where I am (and where I'm guessing you are based on your email address).
If you were thinking of a particular situation other than one of these, just say so. This is a pretty helpful group.
On May 15, 2:24 am, John Hall <nospam_no...@jhall.co.uk> wrote:
> In article <cqOWj.23733$5b3.15283@trnddc05>, > Tim Brown <timothybrow...@verizon.net> writes:>I apologize for a beginners question, but.. My wife and I disagree on when a > >new suit should be forcing. I prefer a new suit to be forcing when it has a > >higher rank (S over H), and not forcing when a lower rank (C over H). I also > >don't like any forces against an overcall. My wife prefers all new suits > >forcing. What is best.
> Since 1H-2C forces the bidding to a higher level than 1H-1S, most > systems say that the 2C response requires a stronger hand than does 1S. > It varies with the system that you are playing, but it is common to > require something like 10 HCP for a response at the two level, whereas a > response at the one level promises no more than 6. So if anything you > have it the wrong way round.
Haven't there been systems where 1H-2C was nonforcing? I think Katz- Cohen's Breakthrough might have been like this, based on what little I've read about it (1H-1NT was unlimited, 1H-2C was nonforcing, 1H-2C plus a sniff through the left nostril was weak... or something like that...) I kind of suspect that was the reason that a game- invitational (or better) 1NT response to a major was prohibited by the GCC.
But anyway, if you do play that way, I suspect you'd need a lot of other specialized agreements, so it's definitely not for beginners.
dfm wrote: > New-suit responses to weak 2 openers are also a matter of agreement, > but if you play them as forcing, I believe you have to alert that (in > the ACBL).
Backwards, non-forcing is the alertable treatment in ACBL.
On May 15, 3:55 pm, Travis Crump <pretz...@techhouse.org> wrote:
> dfm wrote: > > New-suit responses to weak 2 openers are also a matter of agreement, > > but if you play them as forcing, I believe you have to alert that (in > > the ACBL).
> Backwards, non-forcing is the alertable treatment in ACBL.
On May 15, 11:50 am, "Tim Brown" <timothybrow...@verizon.net> wrote:
> I apologize for a beginners question, but.. My wife and I disagree on when a > new suit should be forcing. I prefer a new suit to be forcing when it has a > higher rank (S over H), and not forcing when a lower rank (C over H). I also > don't like any forces against an overcall. My wife prefers all new suits > forcing. What is best.
In an uncontested auction then new suit forcing is a simple rule that works quite well. The system I play has a few exceptions that seldom arise so I'd stick with new suit forcing.
With overcalls I don't know a simple rule. Certainly the first overcall is never forcing, if you want to force then double or cue bid. One hard case is the responding to the first overcall when RHIO passes. Take (1D) 1S 2C. Is that 2C forcing or not? Or should it be (1D) 1S 3C that is forcing? Or should the only forcing response be a cue bid? Is that forcing for one round or to game?
I'll take a stab at a simple rule for contested auctions. New suit is forcing unless both opponents are showing cards.
: In an uncontested auction then new suit forcing is a simple rule that : works quite well. The system I play has a few exceptions that seldom : arise so I'd stick with new suit forcing.
Definately, and the exceptions should probably be discussed and introduced one by one. Making a manageable rules to cover the exceptions sound infeasible.
I am not sure I agree with `seldom' though. 1N - 2H (natural) is normally to play 1H - 1S ; 2C is often NF, although it takes a very bad hand to pass 1H - 1N; 2H - 3D has to be NF if bid at all. Over a wk 2 both NF and F new suit are common.
: With overcalls I don't know a simple rule. Certainly the first : overcall is never forcing, if you want to force then double or cue : bid. One hard case is the responding to the first overcall when RHIO : passes. Take (1D) 1S 2C. Is that 2C forcing or not? Or should it : be (1D) 1S 3C that is forcing? Or should the only forcing response : be a cue bid? Is that forcing for one round or to game? : : I'll take a stab at a simple rule for contested auctions. New suit is : forcing unless both opponents are showing cards.
And an improvement to that rule would probably have to be based on a good partnership understanding of overcall strength, cuebid strength, etc. Picking up a general rule on whether a new suit is forcing or not is only going to help if compatible rules are used for all other bids as well.
