Well I am coming to you all for assistance. I am still having
trouble getting my transfers to align without cheating or even with
cheating for that matter. I have been following along the discussion
that was going on sometime before Tucson this year. I even brought my
GMII to Tucson for Johnny to look at it but alas he was sick. Wayne
and Tyler looked at it and agreed that something seemed amiss and
Tyler figured it was the transfer device. So I ordered a deluxe
transfer device and I still have the same problem. As I tried to
explain at an after hours meeting at the rental house I can cut the
stones alright, at least to an unaided eye, but I cannot use the meter
to do it. I have to cut by eye.
As I was cutting this evening I started to wonder if maybe my dop
was not straight or even worse if my quill was not turning in a
perfect circle. So I put a block of wood against the inside wall of
the well and swung the protractor up to the wood. With light pressure
it kept the protractor from swinging. Then I set up my dial indicator,
that has tick marks measuring .01 mm, to measure the dop, the
tightening nut and the steal wrench holding part of the quill. This
was done with the dop and quill pointing down with the quill set as if
polishing the table. With the indicator riding on the dop and the
round part of the tightening nut the needle would move five ticks, .
05mm, as I rotated the quill from above. With the indicator riding on
the quill above the wrench holding position I was getting ten ticks of
movement or .1mm. Can anyone tell me if this is within tolerance. I
repeated this test several times and the numbers are always the same.
I have concentrated on not varying the sideways pressure on the quill
and feel it was quite stable and the test was accurate. and
repeatable.
I do not wish to drag back up the old conversations of the past,
they are in the archive. I am just trying to find out if these numbers
seem reasonable. Also any other testing, that has to do with the
GMII's calibration, I can do here before I send my machine back would
be appreciated.
Thanks,
Tim from the Valley of the Sun
Tim, can you repeat your test setting the angle at 90 degrees and possibly not using the wood block, just the sleight pressure required to hold the quill in position against the stop? Also, don't use the wrench to tighten the collet, just use your fingers to hand tighten it. Do this and see if the movement variation still occurs and is at the same place with each rotation. Do it with different dops and see if it still happens and is consistent. Then get back to the group with your results.
Ernie
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim" <timp...@qwest.net> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:30 PM To: "Fac-Ette GemMaster II" <fac-ette@googlegroups.com> Subject: Still having problems
> Well I am coming to you all for assistance. I am still having > trouble getting my transfers to align without cheating or even with > cheating for that matter. I have been following along the discussion > that was going on sometime before Tucson this year. I even brought my > GMII to Tucson for Johnny to look at it but alas he was sick. Wayne > and Tyler looked at it and agreed that something seemed amiss and > Tyler figured it was the transfer device. So I ordered a deluxe > transfer device and I still have the same problem. As I tried to > explain at an after hours meeting at the rental house I can cut the > stones alright, at least to an unaided eye, but I cannot use the meter > to do it. I have to cut by eye. > As I was cutting this evening I started to wonder if maybe my dop > was not straight or even worse if my quill was not turning in a > perfect circle. So I put a block of wood against the inside wall of > the well and swung the protractor up to the wood. With light pressure > it kept the protractor from swinging. Then I set up my dial indicator, > that has tick marks measuring .01 mm, to measure the dop, the > tightening nut and the steal wrench holding part of the quill. This > was done with the dop and quill pointing down with the quill set as if > polishing the table. With the indicator riding on the dop and the > round part of the tightening nut the needle would move five ticks, . > 05mm, as I rotated the quill from above. With the indicator riding on > the quill above the wrench holding position I was getting ten ticks of > movement or .1mm. Can anyone tell me if this is within tolerance. I > repeated this test several times and the numbers are always the same. > I have concentrated on not varying the sideways pressure on the quill > and feel it was quite stable and the test was accurate. and > repeatable. > I do not wish to drag back up the old conversations of the past, > they are in the archive. I am just trying to find out if these numbers > seem reasonable. Also any other testing, that has to do with the > GMII's calibration, I can do here before I send my machine back would > be appreciated. > Thanks, > Tim from the Valley of the Sun
Has anyone made dops for our machines outside of Fac-ette? I remember seeing some on ebay once that the seller would key for the gemmaster but I never won the auction. I always (almost) cut with the 2mm dop and sometimes the top doesn't look straight to me. I too have problems transferring. I've been told so many times that it's normal that I gave up on asking (I don't have the problems on my facetron).
-----Original Message----- From: fac-ette@googlegroups.com [mailto:fac-ette@googlegroups.com] On Behalf
Of Tim Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:31 AM To: Fac-Ette GemMaster II Subject: Still having problems
Well I am coming to you all for assistance. I am still having trouble getting my transfers to align without cheating or even with cheating for that matter. I have been following along the discussion that was going on sometime before Tucson this year. I even brought my GMII to Tucson for Johnny to look at it but alas he was sick. Wayne and Tyler looked at it and agreed that something seemed amiss and Tyler figured it was the transfer device. So I ordered a deluxe transfer device and I still have the same problem. As I tried to explain at an after hours meeting at the rental house I can cut the stones alright, at least to an unaided eye, but I cannot use the meter to do it. I have to cut by eye. As I was cutting this evening I started to wonder if maybe my dop was not straight or even worse if my quill was not turning in a perfect circle. So I put a block of wood against the inside wall of the well and swung the protractor up to the wood. With light pressure it kept the protractor from swinging. Then I set up my dial indicator, that has tick marks measuring .01 mm, to measure the dop, the tightening nut and the steal wrench holding part of the quill. This was done with the dop and quill pointing down with the quill set as if polishing the table. With the indicator riding on the dop and the round part of the tightening nut the needle would move five ticks, . 05mm, as I rotated the quill from above. With the indicator riding on the quill above the wrench holding position I was getting ten ticks of movement or .1mm. Can anyone tell me if this is within tolerance. I repeated this test several times and the numbers are always the same. I have concentrated on not varying the sideways pressure on the quill and feel it was quite stable and the test was accurate. and repeatable. I do not wish to drag back up the old conversations of the past, they are in the archive. I am just trying to find out if these numbers seem reasonable. Also any other testing, that has to do with the GMII's calibration, I can do here before I send my machine back would be appreciated. Thanks, Tim from the Valley of the Sun
Remove the drip pan. Place a flat-end dop in the collet and tighten it with the collet locking nut. Set to 90 on the protractor.
Slide the mast towards the platen (no lap) until the dop is over the platen.
Lower it by turning the mast downwards until, when viewed from the side, parallel to the top face of the platen, you can see only a smidgen of daylight. A piece of white paper placed on the far side of the platen will help. In freewheel, rotate the dop 360 degrees. Does the gap between platen and dop change visibly? Try this with a number of flat-end dops. This is a rough way to check run-out, but it is no way to determine cause of it, if it exists. (Dop, collet, quil, mast, gib, etc.)
BTW, if you are using a dial indicator that you got at Harbor Freight for a few bucks, use it for a fishing sinker, that's all it's good for. Good indicators are not cheap.
Have you performed the tightening maintenance on the mast as described in the maintenance bulletin? If there is any play in the topmost mast spindle, you can have problems.
Have you tried a test stone without the use of any keys at all?
What, when and where is the problem showing up? A dop would have to be severely bent to cause a problem that you could see, not very likely. If, when you are cutting the pavilion, you are cutting, say, eight facets to a centerpoint USING THE METER, what happens? And I mean you do this FIRST.
----- Original Message ----- From: Tim<mailto:timp...@qwest.net> To: Fac-Ette GemMaster II<mailto:fac-ette@googlegroups.com> Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 12:30 AM Subject: Still having problems
Well I am coming to you all for assistance. I am still having trouble getting my transfers to align without cheating or even with cheating for that matter. I have been following along the discussion that was going on sometime before Tucson this year. I even brought my GMII to Tucson for Johnny to look at it but alas he was sick. Wayne and Tyler looked at it and agreed that something seemed amiss and Tyler figured it was the transfer device. So I ordered a deluxe transfer device and I still have the same problem. As I tried to explain at an after hours meeting at the rental house I can cut the stones alright, at least to an unaided eye, but I cannot use the meter to do it. I have to cut by eye. As I was cutting this evening I started to wonder if maybe my dop was not straight or even worse if my quill was not turning in a perfect circle. So I put a block of wood against the inside wall of the well and swung the protractor up to the wood. With light pressure it kept the protractor from swinging. Then I set up my dial indicator, that has tick marks measuring .01 mm, to measure the dop, the tightening nut and the steal wrench holding part of the quill. This was done with the dop and quill pointing down with the quill set as if polishing the table. With the indicator riding on the dop and the round part of the tightening nut the needle would move five ticks, . 05mm, as I rotated the quill from above. With the indicator riding on the quill above the wrench holding position I was getting ten ticks of movement or .1mm. Can anyone tell me if this is within tolerance. I repeated this test several times and the numbers are always the same. I have concentrated on not varying the sideways pressure on the quill and feel it was quite stable and the test was accurate. and repeatable. I do not wish to drag back up the old conversations of the past, they are in the archive. I am just trying to find out if these numbers seem reasonable. Also any other testing, that has to do with the GMII's calibration, I can do here before I send my machine back would be appreciated. Thanks, Tim from the Valley of the Sun
Sure, it's no big deal. I know one guy on another forum got tired of
waiting for backordered dops and had some made at his place of work.
Marsh has had some really nice ones made. For that matter, it would
be easy if you know cad at all to hook up with www.emachineshop.com to
get some made. However, with respect to this particular problem (not
being able to cheat in after transfer), for me at least it was due to
a tilted stone... and that was due to using the keys in the transfer
fixture. The problem is eliminated if you do not use the keys when
transferring in the Universal fixture (this assumes your dops are ~
equal dia., again no big deal in my experience). So you can get
facetron dops or others or even Fac-Ette dops and just don't use the
key "feature". I have not had any issue since I made that change.
micra
On May 12, 9:41 am, "Craig" <cr...@creativecutgems.com> wrote:
Craig wrote: > Has anyone made dops for our machines outside of Fac-ette? I remember > seeing some on ebay once that the seller would key for the gemmaster but I > never won the auction. I always (almost) cut with the 2mm dop and sometimes > the top doesn't look straight to me. I too have problems transferring. > I've been told so many times that it's normal that I gave up on asking (I > don't have the problems on my facetron).
> Craig
> -----Original Message----- > From: fac-ette@googlegroups.com [mailto:fac-ette@googlegroups.com] On Behalf > Of Tim > Sent: Sunday, May 11, 2008 1:31 AM > To: Fac-Ette GemMaster II > Subject: Still having problems
> Well I am coming to you all for assistance. I am still having > trouble getting my transfers to align without cheating or even with > cheating for that matter. I have been following along the discussion > that was going on sometime before Tucson this year. I even brought my > GMII to Tucson for Johnny to look at it but alas he was sick. Wayne > and Tyler looked at it and agreed that something seemed amiss and > Tyler figured it was the transfer device. So I ordered a deluxe > transfer device and I still have the same problem. As I tried to > explain at an after hours meeting at the rental house I can cut the > stones alright, at least to an unaided eye, but I cannot use the meter > to do it. I have to cut by eye. > As I was cutting this evening I started to wonder if maybe my dop > was not straight or even worse if my quill was not turning in a > perfect circle. So I put a block of wood against the inside wall of > the well and swung the protractor up to the wood. With light pressure > it kept the protractor from swinging. Then I set up my dial indicator, > that has tick marks measuring .01 mm, to measure the dop, the > tightening nut and the steal wrench holding part of the quill. This > was done with the dop and quill pointing down with the quill set as if > polishing the table. With the indicator riding on the dop and the > round part of the tightening nut the needle would move five ticks, . > 05mm, as I rotated the quill from above. With the indicator riding on > the quill above the wrench holding position I was getting ten ticks of > movement or .1mm. Can anyone tell me if this is within tolerance. I > repeated this test several times and the numbers are always the same. > I have concentrated on not varying the sideways pressure on the quill > and feel it was quite stable and the test was accurate. and > repeatable. > I do not wish to drag back up the old conversations of the past, > they are in the archive. I am just trying to find out if these numbers > seem reasonable. Also any other testing, that has to do with the > GMII's calibration, I can do here before I send my machine back would > be appreciated. > Thanks, > Tim from the Valley of the Sun
Hi Ernie, I have tried it at 90 degrees as you asked. I used a sponge to keep the mast from swinging this time : ). I do not use a wrench for tightening and always have it in free wheel when I do tighten. The movement variation still occurs and it goes from on at 96 to 5, (.05mm) clicks off at 48 degrees when on the dop. When on the quill above the wrench position it goes off .05 mm in each direction from the start;96 on 24 off =.05mm, 48 on, 72= -.05mm. I have a stone on the dop now so I will try different dops later. Thanks for your interest.
Ernie Hawes wrote: > Tim, can you repeat your test setting the angle at 90 degrees and possibly > not using the wood block, just the sleight pressure required to hold the > quill in position against the stop? Also, don't use the wrench to tighten > the collet, just use your fingers to hand tighten it. Do this and see if > the movement variation still occurs and is at the same place with each > rotation. Do it with different dops and see if it still happens and is > consistent. Then get back to the group with your results.
> Ernie
> -------------------------------------------------- > From: "Tim" <timp...@qwest.net> > Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:30 PM > To: "Fac-Ette GemMaster II" <fac-ette@googlegroups.com> > Subject: Still having problems
>> Well I am coming to you all for assistance. I am still having >> trouble getting my transfers to align without cheating or even with >> cheating for that matter. I have been following along the discussion >> that was going on sometime before Tucson this year. I even brought my >> GMII to Tucson for Johnny to look at it but alas he was sick. Wayne >> and Tyler looked at it and agreed that something seemed amiss and >> Tyler figured it was the transfer device. So I ordered a deluxe >> transfer device and I still have the same problem. As I tried to >> explain at an after hours meeting at the rental house I can cut the >> stones alright, at least to an unaided eye, but I cannot use the meter >> to do it. I have to cut by eye. >> As I was cutting this evening I started to wonder if maybe my dop >> was not straight or even worse if my quill was not turning in a >> perfect circle. So I put a block of wood against the inside wall of >> the well and swung the protractor up to the wood. With light pressure >> it kept the protractor from swinging. Then I set up my dial indicator, >> that has tick marks measuring .01 mm, to measure the dop, the >> tightening nut and the steal wrench holding part of the quill. This >> was done with the dop and quill pointing down with the quill set as if >> polishing the table. With the indicator riding on the dop and the >> round part of the tightening nut the needle would move five ticks, . >> 05mm, as I rotated the quill from above. With the indicator riding on >> the quill above the wrench holding position I was getting ten ticks of >> movement or .1mm. Can anyone tell me if this is within tolerance. I >> repeated this test several times and the numbers are always the same. >> I have concentrated on not varying the sideways pressure on the quill >> and feel it was quite stable and the test was accurate. and >> repeatable. >> I do not wish to drag back up the old conversations of the past, >> they are in the archive. I am just trying to find out if these numbers >> seem reasonable. Also any other testing, that has to do with the >> GMII's calibration, I can do here before I send my machine back would >> be appreciated. >> Thanks, >> Tim from the Valley of the Sun
Hi Wayne, My dial indicator is a high grade Mahr that came with some optical instruments I use to use. We used it as part of our quarterly calibration of optical instruments. I have performed the mast tightening in fact I think it was you or Tyler that did it in Tucson. I tried a test stone not using the key and it was the same but it was only one stone. I always use the meter on the pavilion but it is not dead on. I also used it to cut the girdle to the same reading on a square stone then to go back and test cut again using the meter but alas not dead on.
The problem becomes very apparent after transfer. If I cut to the meter it is always off. I then cheat and can never get it to come dead on. At that point I give up and go straight to cutting by eye. I do not get perfect stones I get acceptable ones if you do not use a 10X loop. Not really what I paid for and I always feel like I am cheating anyone that wants to purchase them. I hesitate to sell for I do not want a bad rep. Thanks for your interest and I'll try your light trick after this stone but it seems that would all depend on the dop having a true flat top. I have not figured out how to test for that with the equipment I have. I could grind it flat on the GMII but if it is somehow out of whack it seems I would still have some issues.
> Remove the drip pan. Place a flat-end dop in the collet and tighten > it with the collet locking nut. Set to 90 on the protractor.
> Slide the mast towards the platen (no lap) until the dop is over the > platen.
> Lower it by turning the mast downwards until, when viewed from the > side, parallel to the top face of the platen, you can see only a > smidgen of daylight. A piece of white paper placed on the far side of > the platen will help. In freewheel, rotate the dop 360 degrees. Does > the gap between platen and dop change visibly? Try this with a number > of flat-end dops. This is a rough way to check run-out, but it is no > way to determine cause of it, if it exists. (Dop, collet, quil, mast, > gib, etc.)
> BTW, if you are using a dial indicator that you got at Harbor Freight > for a few bucks, use it for a fishing sinker, that's all it's good > for. Good indicators are not cheap.
> Have you performed the tightening maintenance on the mast as described > in the maintenance bulletin? If there is any play in the topmost mast > spindle, you can have problems.
> Have you tried a test stone without the use of any keys at all?
> What, when and where is the problem showing up? A dop would have to > be severely bent to cause a problem that you could see, not very > likely. If, when you are cutting the pavilion, you are cutting, say, > eight facets to a centerpoint USING THE METER, what happens? And I > mean you do this FIRST.
> Wayne
> ----- Original Message -----
> *From:* Tim <mailto:timp...@qwest.net> > *To:* Fac-Ette GemMaster II <mailto:fac-ette@googlegroups.com> > *Sent:* Sunday, May 11, 2008 12:30 AM > *Subject:* Still having problems
> Well I am coming to you all for assistance. I am still having > trouble getting my transfers to align without cheating or even with > cheating for that matter. I have been following along the discussion > that was going on sometime before Tucson this year. I even brought my > GMII to Tucson for Johnny to look at it but alas he was sick. Wayne > and Tyler looked at it and agreed that something seemed amiss and > Tyler figured it was the transfer device. So I ordered a deluxe > transfer device and I still have the same problem. As I tried to > explain at an after hours meeting at the rental house I can cut the > stones alright, at least to an unaided eye, but I cannot use the meter > to do it. I have to cut by eye. > As I was cutting this evening I started to wonder if maybe my dop > was not straight or even worse if my quill was not turning in a > perfect circle. So I put a block of wood against the inside wall of > the well and swung the protractor up to the wood. With light pressure > it kept the protractor from swinging. Then I set up my dial indicator, > that has tick marks measuring .01 mm, to measure the dop, the > tightening nut and the steal wrench holding part of the quill. This > was done with the dop and quill pointing down with the quill set as if > polishing the table. With the indicator riding on the dop and the > round part of the tightening nut the needle would move five ticks, . > 05mm, as I rotated the quill from above. With the indicator riding on > the quill above the wrench holding position I was getting ten ticks of > movement or .1mm. Can anyone tell me if this is within tolerance. I > repeated this test several times and the numbers are always the same. > I have concentrated on not varying the sideways pressure on the quill > and feel it was quite stable and the test was accurate. and > repeatable. > I do not wish to drag back up the old conversations of the past, > they are in the archive. I am just trying to find out if these numbers > seem reasonable. Also any other testing, that has to do with the > GMII's calibration, I can do here before I send my machine back would > be appreciated. > Thanks, > Tim from the Valley of the Sun
Tim, I'm assuming that you've aligned the key with the platen. Are you making sure that you're not rotating the dop when you transfer? I always mark the first dop with a Sharpie pen at the 96 setting. When I transfer, I mark the other dop the same while it is still in the transfer block. That way, any concentric error that may be in the quill is compensated for. I started doing this years ago on other machines and have continued doing it on my GemMaster II. Slight concentric errors in the quill have been common on many machines and are easily corrected using the procedure I described. Dop diameter variations can be more of a problem, but are generally compensated for by the collet on the GMII. In my experience, neither concentricity nor dop variations are much of a problem on a Fac-Ette machine. In fact, on my particular machine, they're not a problem at all. I align the quill with the platen regularly and can consistently cut to a .5 girdle thickness that is even all around. I don't use a heavy hand, and I'm quick to lift the quill from the lap when the needle hits zero. I never have to use the cheater except to compensate for slightly non-parallel laps. Unfortunately, I can't say that about other machines I've used over the years.
Ernie
-------------------------------------------------- From: "Tim Mahoney" <timp...@qwest.net> Sent: Monday, May 12, 2008 6:07 PM To: <fac-ette@googlegroups.com> Subject: Re: Still having problems
> Hi Ernie, > I have tried it at 90 degrees as you asked. I used a sponge to keep > the mast from swinging this time : ). I do not use a wrench for > tightening and always have it in free wheel when I do tighten. The > movement variation still occurs and it goes from on at 96 to 5, (.05mm) > clicks off at 48 degrees when on the dop. When on the quill above the > wrench position it goes off .05 mm in each direction from the start;96 > on 24 off =.05mm, 48 on, 72= -.05mm. I have a stone on the dop now so I > will try different dops later. Thanks for your interest.
> Ernie Hawes wrote: >> Tim, can you repeat your test setting the angle at 90 degrees and >> possibly >> not using the wood block, just the sleight pressure required to hold the >> quill in position against the stop? Also, don't use the wrench to >> tighten >> the collet, just use your fingers to hand tighten it. Do this and see if >> the movement variation still occurs and is at the same place with each >> rotation. Do it with different dops and see if it still happens and is >> consistent. Then get back to the group with your results.
>> Ernie
>> -------------------------------------------------- >> From: "Tim" <timp...@qwest.net> >> Sent: Saturday, May 10, 2008 11:30 PM >> To: "Fac-Ette GemMaster II" <fac-ette@googlegroups.com> >> Subject: Still having problems
>>> Well I am coming to you all for assistance. I am still having >>> trouble getting my transfers to align without cheating or even with >>> cheating for that matter. I have been following along the discussion >>> that was going on sometime before Tucson this year. I even brought my >>> GMII to Tucson for Johnny to look at it but alas he was sick. Wayne >>> and Tyler looked at it and agreed that something seemed amiss and >>> Tyler figured it was the transfer device. So I ordered a deluxe >>> transfer device and I still have the same problem. As I tried to >>> explain at an after hours meeting at the rental house I can cut the >>> stones alright, at least to an unaided eye, but I cannot use the meter >>> to do it. I have to cut by eye. >>> As I was cutting this evening I started to wonder if maybe my dop >>> was not straight or even worse if my quill was not turning in a >>> perfect circle. So I put a block of wood against the inside wall of >>> the well and swung the protractor up to the wood. With light pressure >>> it kept the protractor from swinging. Then I set up my dial indicator, >>> that has tick marks measuring .01 mm, to measure the dop, the >>> tightening nut and the steal wrench holding part of the quill. This >>> was done with the dop and quill pointing down with the quill set as if >>> polishing the table. With the indicator riding on the dop and the >>> round part of the tightening nut the needle would move five ticks, . >>> 05mm, as I rotated the quill from above. With the indicator riding on >>> the quill above the wrench holding position I was getting ten ticks of >>> movement or .1mm. Can anyone tell me if this is within tolerance. I >>> repeated this test several times and the numbers are always the same. >>> I have concentrated on not varying the sideways pressure on the quill >>> and feel it was quite stable and the test was accurate. and >>> repeatable. >>> I do not wish to drag back up the old conversations of the past, >>> they are in the archive. I am just trying to find out if these numbers >>> seem reasonable. Also any other testing, that has to do with the >>> GMII's calibration, I can do here before I send my machine back would >>> be appreciated. >>> Thanks, >>> Tim from the Valley of the Sun
