Can someone point me to a history of CLIM? I gather that it was somewhat of a joint venture of different Lisp vendors from the days when "Lisp vendors" included folks like Symbolics. Was it based on the Lisp Machine's UI frameworks. Or was it an all new thing.
I also gather that it never really took off (though it now seems to be experiencing a bit of a renaissance thanks to the McCLIM project). Were there any major CLIM-based applications?
On Sun, 30 Jan 2005 22:11:39 GMT, Peter Seibel <pe...@javamonkey.com> wrote:
> Can someone point me to a history of CLIM? I gather that it was > somewhat of a joint venture of different Lisp vendors from the days > when "Lisp vendors" included folks like Symbolics. Was it based on the > Lisp Machine's UI frameworks. Or was it an all new thing.
> I also gather that it never really took off (though it now seems to be > experiencing a bit of a renaissance thanks to the McCLIM project). > Were there any major CLIM-based applications?
> -Peter
Hard to find anything. However I found the following link:
Peter Seibel <pe...@javamonkey.com> writes: > Can someone point me to a history of CLIM? I gather that it was > somewhat of a joint venture of different Lisp vendors from the days > when "Lisp vendors" included folks like Symbolics. Was it based on the > Lisp Machine's UI frameworks. Or was it an all new thing.
Symbolics' Dynamic Windows system was the forerunner of CLIM. DW had presentation types, framework stuff, commands and accelerators, incremental redisplay, output recording, graphing, and most of the other stuff that you're familiar with in CLIM. The macros and functions (eg. DEFINE-PRESENTATION-TYPE, ACCEPT, PRESENT, etc.) were almost exactly the same.
CLIM was a cleanup and a complete re-implementation of DW, with a lot of simplifications and improvements to the API and the graphics model. The CLIM extensibility protocols were designed to be portable, and more comprehensible, than in DW.
CLIM was an attempt to get the vendors together on a portable, powerful graphics system. One of its key features was that where Dynamic Windows only ran on the Lisp Machine's "sheets" window system, CLIM would run on top of a portable abstraction layer called "Silica" (although I think in the end, it didn't quite wind up using Silica as originally envisioned).
I don't think CLIM and Dynamic Windows really shared any code.
A bunch of people at Symbolics worked on creating DW and CLIM. I don't remember who the Xerox guys were. There are at least two CLIM hackers who regularly appear on this newsgroup. They can tell you more about the technical differences, and probably about the vendor politics and CLIM history.
When I was writing typical presentation-type based programs just on the Lisp Machine, I never really noticed any huge differences between CLIM and Dynamic Windows. (But I think for a while, at least, it was easier to debug DW programs than CLIM programs, due to the way it was integrated in Genera.)
There was also a system modeled after Dynamic Windows (DW) called Express Windows. EW was a simplified version of the DW functionality and API, running under X Windows (CLX) on Franz and Lucid. It was whippeed up by a two-man consulting comapny called Liszt Programming (which was Andy Ressler and Mike Komichak).
> I also gather that it never really took off (though it now seems to be > experiencing a bit of a renaissance thanks to the McCLIM project). > Were there any major CLIM-based applications?
Symbolics used Dynamic Windows and CLIM a lot, for Genera itself and in the layered products, as well as many internal tools. Lots of users wrote DW (and later, CLIM) applications.
But as I recall, CLIM became mature after "AI Winter" set in, and it tracked the popularity of Lisp in general. I don't think this was about CLIM "not taking off" as much as Lisp becoming unpopular. I think a bunch of work was done at Harlequin, post-Symbolics.
In the modern era, I would ask this question of Franz in particular.
Eugene Cicarelli's thesis is often cited in connection with DW. "Presentation Based User Interfaces", MIT AI Lab, AI-TR-794, 1984. His system was called PSBase, and had presentations, styles, gestures, recognizers, etc. This was on the Lisp Machine. Gene was an EMACS hacker and I think he was largely inspired by the direct and planned manipulation aspects of subsystems like DIRED, the Xerox desktop metaphor (eg. moving a file into the trashcan), and by various people's work on object modelling in AI and in (eg. Leiberman's) programming systems.
I forgot to mention: the "command processor" and input editing part of Dynamic Windows and CLIM, providing command/input completion and prompting, was inspired by the TENEX/TOPS-20 facility. I think that Mike McMahon probably had a lot to do with both.
Paolo -- Lisp Propulsion Laboratory log - http://www.paoloamoroso.it/log Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org): - ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation - CL-PPCRE: regular expressions - UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
For historical information I suggest that you check the CLIM mailing list archives, at least the ones from 1990 to 1992, which was the time around which CLIM was being designed and in transition from version 1 to 2. The archives from 1996 are also a useful resource for later developments--or lack thereof.
Those archives are a rich source of material on CLIM design decisions, the systems it was influenced by, vendor involvement, user acceptance and needs, etc. You will also find some information on the history of Lisp (e.g. the creation of ALU).
You may also contact Scott McKay, John Aspinall or other CLIM designers.
> somewhat of a joint venture of different Lisp vendors from the days > when "Lisp vendors" included folks like Symbolics. Was it based on the
The original consortium behind CLIM was called "International Lisp Associates".
> I also gather that it never really took off (though it now seems to be > experiencing a bit of a renaissance thanks to the McCLIM project).
Are you working on Practical CLIM? :)
The lack of information on CLIM is among the main reasons why I started my blog.
> Were there any major CLIM-based applications?
You can get an idea of the kind of code CLIM was used for from this list:
But this page lists only applications for which source code is available in some way, and it may not be a representative sample.
Paolo -- Lisp Propulsion Laboratory log - http://www.paoloamoroso.it/log Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org): - ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation - CL-PPCRE: regular expressions - UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
> For historical information I suggest that you check the CLIM mailing > list archives, at least the ones from 1990 to 1992, which was the time [...] >> Were there any major CLIM-based applications?
I forgot to mention that the CLIM list archives also describe several CLIM applications.
Paolo -- Lisp Propulsion Laboratory log - http://www.paoloamoroso.it/log Recommended Common Lisp libraries/tools (see also http://clrfi.alu.org): - ASDF/ASDF-INSTALL: system building/installation - CL-PPCRE: regular expressions - UFFI: Foreign Function Interface
> For historical information I suggest that you check the CLIM mailing > list archives, at least the ones from 1990 to 1992, which was the time > around which CLIM was being designed and in transition from version 1 > to 2. The archives from 1996 are also a useful resource for later > developments--or lack thereof.
> Those archives are a rich source of material on CLIM design decisions, > the systems it was influenced by, vendor involvement, user acceptance > and needs, etc. You will also find some information on the history of > Lisp (e.g. the creation of ALU).
> You may also contact Scott McKay, John Aspinall or other CLIM > designers.
> > somewhat of a joint venture of different Lisp vendors from the days > > when "Lisp vendors" included folks like Symbolics. Was it based on the
> The original consortium behind CLIM was called "International Lisp > Associates".
I don't recall ILA having anything to do with CLIM particularly. They did internationalization (mostly Japanese) consulting.
The way I remember it, it was a mainly a matter of Symbolics and Xerox getting together. But it was a long time ago, so I could easily have forgotten.
> > The original consortium behind CLIM was called "International Lisp > > Associates".
> I don't recall ILA having anything to do with CLIM particularly. > They did internationalization (mostly Japanese) consulting.
I also don't think they were a consortium -- they were just a handful of ex-Symbolics folks who decided to form a consulting company.
ILA did implement some major Symbolics subsystems, though: they did the X11R3 port and NFS implementation, initially selling them as third-party products, and later licensing them to Symbolics.
-- Barry Margolin, bar...@alum.mit.edu Arlington, MA *** PLEASE post questions in newsgroups, not directly to me ***
Christopher C. Stacy wrote: > I don't recall ILA having anything to do with CLIM particularly. > They did internationalization (mostly Japanese) consulting.
> The way I remember it, it was a mainly a matter of Symbolics > and Xerox getting together. But it was a long time ago, so I > could easily have forgotten.
I am quite sure that we bought long time ago (1991?) Clim for MACL (now MCL) directly from ILA (From Bill York and Dennis Doughty
