Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: Enzo Piccone <e...@hermes.it>
Date: 1999/04/11
Subject: Re: Idiots
How wonderful to read such a thoughtful reply.
Keep it up, and I'll soon be eating out of your hand, babe. :) > Well, as you would no doubt be among the first to point out, it *is* difficult What your "handlers" may be saying is that given the information you > to appreciate the value and workability of something with which you have no > first-hand experience. > I mean, I've had scn handlers tell me outright that I cannot understand it have and the opinions you've already formed, perhaps the only thing that would allow you to understand Scientology's merits, at this point, is to experience some of these yourself. Well, perhaps this is the case. I don't think so myself. And even if I I checked out Scientology to my own satisfaction before I took any Several hours of intense conversation with several Scientologists, > Some former scientologists, in fact, have been very honest with me about the I don't believe Scientology claims to have a monopoly with regard to > benefits that they believe they received from scientology, particularly the > lower level courses, such as the comm courses and some of the TRs. While I may > privately dispute the idea that only scientology offers these benefits, I > respect the fact that, for them, there was value in what they learned through > their experiences in scientology. each and every result it may offer. It does claim, correctly, that the entire package has no equivalent. > And, on the point to which you were responding in the above passage (and I bet I agree with you. As I wrote in my last, the effort to preserve > you thought I'd never get around to that): if the fundamental tech itself is > of such power and workability that it outweighs any weaknesses within the > organization itself, I'm sure it could only be strengthened by allowing more > discretion for auditors 'in the field', as it were. Life is not static; > culture evolves, as do the people that create it. A philosophy - applied > religious, or otherwise - that cannot evolve is doomed to become less and less > relevant to the people who seek to use it. Scientology intact and unaltered has a rationale, but I added that such a rationale has its own weaknesses and faults. You've mentioned some of them here. There are at least a few others that come immediately to mind, but I needn't get into them now. I'd just as soon have seen LRH do something similar to what IBM did I'm a libertarian and a Georgist*, and I regard monopolies as bad So, I'd have preferred to have seen discarded any monopolistic aspect of There could have been as simple a policy statement as, "In the C of S But it would be not only ungenerous to leave discussion of this issue One of the things about Scientology which critics, virtually all of Attempting to relegate this enterprise to a scam, a money machine, a In any event, you might like to give some thought, or some more thought, We're looking at an activity which makes some ordinary, but also some And we're looking at this activity being resident in societies which These societies also include mental health and pharmaceutical cartels In other words, we're encroaching on the hard-fought-over, Then there's the calibre of people on this planet, which can be There's the fact that Scientology philosophy, technology, and And then there's anything and everything else which might assail even We are not looking, in other words, at a cakewalk. Now, what does all of this have to do with the sixties and with the These were days of intensive research and development in Scientology. Perhaps one of the considerations, then, was that there was enough going If so, one solution -- complete with its obvious weaknesses, flaws, and Sometimes I enjoy complicating things: makes life more interesting. But The unalterability of Scientology doctrine has its rationale. So does I'd have more fun arguing against these policies than for them. What I As I've mentioned, Scientology's development has not been a cakewalk, Okay, that's a look at the past and present. How about the future? Not to further presume on your interest in this issue, here I'll be Me, I'd like to see some things cancelled, some things changed, and, of What's more, I've considered all of this inevitable since the day I When and how any of these changes and improvements may happen, however > I agree that it is futile to respond to anyone who claims to have benefited Agreed. > from scn with accusations that they are somehow deluded, or deliberately > lying. It also, imo, makes it less likely that those so attacked will heed > even valid criticisms that are made by those on the offensive, given the > overall context. This is a basic weakness that pervades far too much of the > criticism of scientology, I think, and one that some of us try hard to avoid. > But are you sure you don't practice the same double standard when it comes to Yes, I'm quite sure that I don't practice the same double standard. > reading critics? If someone like me expresses scepticism in the workability of > the tech, do you presume that what I may have to say about other aspects of > scientology is without value? At the risk of sounding quite presumptuous, I would also suggest that I simply don't consider a.r.s. a forum for much more than my excellent > Yes, too often it becomes a screeching contest, with critics yelling about Agreed. > galactic warlords, and hatted OSA posters accusing them of horrific, yet > unspecified crimes. It's too easy for both sides to fall into a prepared rant > attacking their opponent without taking into consideration the argument that > is being presented. > >But I continue to digress. Soon you'll have me eating out of both your hands. > Oops, I hadn't noticed. > But does this highly developed philosophy and highly effective technology There are flaws all over the place, not just in the organisation. Not a > exist independently of the organization itself, flawed as it may be with these > possible weaknesses and faults? If so, it strikes me that using the argument > that the benefit of the tech outweighs weaknesses and faults within the > structure of the organization that utilizes it is flawed. great many of them, but it's not as though they're confined to the organisation. But as I've written here before, Scientology doesn't claim that any part of it is flawless. Its claim is to workability. It works. It gets results. Perhaps it's a Ford in comparison to a Ferrari. Or a tractor in > The tech, if truly valuable, will continue to be equally valuable whether it I think I covered at least some of this above. > is practiced within the bounds of the Church of Scientology, or by a quiet > loner in a basement in Alaska who just bought a copy of Dianetics at the local > bookshop. Therefore, when evaluating the relative merit of criticism of these > weaknesses, it doesn't make sense to consider the benefits of the tech itself. > >And we are also looking at an organisational design which is quite I don't think your statement makes much sense, actually, but it did made > >capable of perpetuating itself. > Which is not necessarily an indication that it is the best or most beneficial me laugh, so I think I may have gotten the joke just the same. > Hmm. I see your point. But I'm not sure if you can comfortably claim that It sells an opportunity to gain a great deal of understanding of, and to > scientology is the *only* path to self-fulfillment, be it through better > communication skills, heightened existential satisfaction or whatever else it > is that scientology 'sells' to its market. Perhaps that's a question you would > answer ... using your analogy of a marketplace, what is it that you believe > scientology sells? regain one's power of choice over, life. Of course one need apply oneself. It doesn't just happen. You pays Not only: as workable as Scientology is, one's chance is still only as A tragi-comic aspect of life is that it makes no difference whatsoever In other words, Scientology is in no way a free ride. And it is not Sooner or later it'll cost considerably less money. Sooner or later > >So, whether you or I or anyone else might like it or not, there is still Snide? I'm ready to invite you to Italy. :) > >nothing on this planet to compare to the results produced by Scn > >auditing and training, or to the level of organisational stability > >maintained by the C of S. Not, that is, if we are looking at activities > >to do with the spirit and the mind. > Hang on a sec here. Nothing to compare? What do you mean by 'results', first > (Note - I am not being snide; I'm just honestly not sure what you mean.) The comm courses don't assume a person has no abilities. A person may The instructions are simple. Very simple. People will complicate the So, you do the drills. And doing the drills, you improve whatever When you come visit, I'll be happy to do some TR 0 with you. (Don't <snip something covered above> > .... But may I draw a parallel? Not at all. > You may have read some recent threads wherein I have been highly critical of > Is this attitude not like yours towards these faults and weaknesses If this were a forum packed with Scientologists who have what I would But this is a.r.s.. I am the spattering here, the minority. And almost I'm pleased you, Deana, Diane, Sister Clara and some others cointinue to I'm an even smaller minority here than might be immediately apparent. >From what I've been able to tell, I may be a minority of one. I don't mind this in the slightest. I knew what I was getting myself into at the start, and if I'd not actually looked forward to it with some relish, I'd not have begun posting. But I certainly didn't begin writing to add my criticism to what I So, no, what's missing here isn't further criticism of Scientology from If and when the discussion ever does become more balanced, I'll be > >Speaking now only for myself, mine is a highly qualified, selective, and Yes. > >shifting support. And it couldn't be otherwise. I've studied the > >subject extensively and in depth. I consider I know both its merits and > >strengths, and its liabilities and weaknesses. And I choose to support > >or withdraw my support from individuals or activities based on my own, > >on-going evaluations of such. > Does this mean that you continue to evaluate your support for the CoS based on I think that is darned > sensible. I think it's indispensible. > >During the course of my study, during the time I've been a Sci't, I have Yes, this is what I mean. > >never been willing to compromise my ability to evaluate or my freedom of > >choice with regard to what I would do, whom I would support, and what > >activities I would support or not. > >It's for this reason, amongst others, that I have a lesser estimation of > This is interesting to me. Do you mean that you have a lesser estimation for What I don't do with Scientologists who just don't know or who just I also tend to think with the stable datum [a datum around which one may Life is a game. It may certainly not look that way now and then, but > I doubt you will answer this question, for the reasons I gave earlier, but I Let's separate out and also clarify a few things, as we're looking at a > am curious: what, do you think, would make you withdraw that support? This > isn't a trick question, and it isn't a trap. I'm just curious as to the > criteria you use in this ongoing evaluation to determine whether or not you > would continue to consider yourself an adherent and supporter. number of factors here. There's Scientology doctrine; the C of S as an organisation, including its staffs; public (non-staffmember) Scientologists; and perhaps other things I'm not looking at right now, such as C of S social programmes. The most important of these factors is Scientology doctrine, and I've no If enough people in or out of Scientology were *really* determined about So, far be it for me to put any more of my own demand for change into No problem, then, with the doctrine. The doctrine -- complete with its And now let's lump the doctrine back in with all of the other factors I could give you any number of what I would consider catastrophic But such scenarios aren't going to happen. Sure, anything can happen, So, I currently don't see my support going anywhere other than where it (God's truth, will this article never end?!) > >Now, much or most or all of what I've argued here could be liquidated Because I consider the determination to promote such a half-witted > >with the assertion that Scn simply does not have the value and > >workability I've stated it does have. Or it could be asserted that its > >liabilities outweigh its merits. (This latter, by the way, I consider a > >quite sinister assertion, and despite whatever ignorance might lie > >behind it.) > Why sinister? evaluation of Scientology cannot but also be the consequence of a determined and persistent ignorance. And I regard determined and persistent ignorance as sinister. And it strikes me that, when it comes to scientology, the value > and workability may be, like beauty, in the eye of the beholder. Which doesn't I don't think I'd like to argue this until the end of time, but if you'd > mean that it does not exist - it means simply that while you might find value > in it, it is possible that I may not. It doesn't make either of us wrong, or > right. But it does mean that the question itself is inherently subjective, and > thus, we could argue about it till the end of time. like to argue it on and off for a couple or a few weeks, you're welcome to come visit. There's a spare bedroom upstairs, and the rest of the house and its surrounds are an excellent arguing environment. E You must Sign in before you can post messages.
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