: <snip-rm group chat>

<and more snip.>

: > : least not in my mind. Nor does her attempt define the intentions and
: > : quality of thousands of CofS's members. To think otherwise - defining an
: > : entire class of people by the actions of a few - is mere prejudice and
: > : more a reflection of the haters intentions than the hated.
: >
: > Really?  I'd say that when someone who works for you does something
: > wrong it _does_ reflect on you.  Especially if you continue to
: > employ that person.

: Such things are a constantly shifting landscape. The potential for
: idiocy and criminality amongst the ranks of any organization rises in
: direct proportion the amount of members. CofS is no exception, not is
: the company you work for or the church or any groups you belong to.
: Straw man. This is an argument for grade schoolers.

I made no reference to _my_ place of work or _my_ church.  I made
a general comment about having resposiblity for those that work for
you.  I see no straw man.

: > Your use of the words "hate", "hater" etc. are
: > unneeded.  I do not hate the CoS.

: Provoking discussion of what, IMO, has become a seriously negative
: aspect of otherwise valid ARS criticism is much needed.

Agreed.

: > In fact if there was reform to
: > the point that:
: >         * No one else died for the same reasons Lisa M. died

: Apparently this is an isolated case. The eventual trial will bring out
: the facts. Are we forgetting that the justice system in America does
: indeed apply to Scn as well as the rest of us?

No I'm not forgeting that.  The problem is that the CoS has
not admitted any guilt in the matter.  They have not said
"we screwed up".  Thats a problem.  If they told the
rest of their membership "Don't do this, it is wrong" then
I would be much happier.

: >         * The CoS _stopped_ claiming to be compatible with
: >           Christianity.  (Or at least explained that LRH discounted
: >           the existence of Christ.)

: Ain't going to happen. Not in the forseeable future.
Agreed.  So it seems unlikely I'll be going away anytime soon.

: >         * Stopped harassing their critics.

: Why would they do that? This is the Scorpion and the Frog Mark. Despite
: the claims that they have discovered they are thetans, not humans, they
: are chained to the realities of their natures. As are you and I.

Perhaps.  However other religions and individuals behave _much_ better
than the CoS.  Are you are saying that this behavor comes from
their religion?  Or are you claiming this behavor is part of human
nature?

: >         * Stopped "protecting" its members from the real world.

: Huh? What is that supposed to mean? Your real world? Mine?
Sorry.  A good example might be the web-page agreement
they ask their members to sign.  They are then required to use
a "web-filter" which keeps them out of anti-CoS sites...

: > I would almost certainally cease to be a critic of the CoS.  In my mind
: > I have a responsibility to protest, yell and scream about those things
: > that can harm others.  Be it poorly handled meat at the supermarket or
: > anything else.

: Seems reasonable to me. Within that statement lies some fo the logic as
: to why I vote, despite knowing I'll eventually be betrayed by my
: candidate.

*LAUGH*
:  
: <snip>

: > : Whatever value ARS does have in reforming or changing the
: > : CofS is seriously limited by the fact that this NG has itself evolved
: > : into a forum for blind displays of hatred and prejudice.
: >
: > It is a forum for that, again on both sides.  However it is also
: > a forum for thoughtful discussion; valid criticism, and other
: > good things.  Newsgroups are that way.  Everyone has a voice.
: > Even you.

: Yep. But then, your enemies would indeed look pretty foolish if they
: were the only ones acting like lunatics.

I know.  I wish it were so.

: > Always take the high ground, whether in war or debate.

: Unless the low ground is cheaper, faster and more effective :~D

: Wolf

Mark