Because the shit has really hit the fan...if things can calm down for them for even a few days they can re-group. I have always been a big fan of Christmas and feel that it should be re-named to be something non-demoninational and just have one day a year that is dedicated to "peace and goodwill towards men" (okay so im only half-feartedly poloticially correct...peace and goodwill to all?). But the fact of the matter is that the fight against Scientology doesn't go against this concept...when Scientology promises to release people from the RPF and promises to let those people go who wish to leave, and when they promise to stop harrassing critics and other organizations and when they stop subjugating those within their religion, then we will haev taken a step (a small one granted) toward "peace and goowill" Until that time comes I'm not going to stop posting the truth about this vile organization.
>this concept...when Scientology promises to release people from >the RPF and
promises to let those people go who wish to leave, >and when
Is the International Red Cross allowed to interview these political prisoners? Can they receive care packages and letters thru the Red Cross? I know that sometimes even the North Vietnamese allowed international Red Cross workers to visit their POW compounds.
Maybe because the average staffer wants christmas off, and they know management will make them work christmas if there are SPs to fight, so their only chance for some seasonal compassion and enjoyment is to appeal to a.r.s.
In article <19971219163501.LAA15...@ladder02.news.aol.com>,
wesfa...@aol.com (WESFAGER) wrote: >>this concept...when Scientology promises to release people from >the RPF and >promises to let those people go who wish to leave, >and when
>Is the International Red Cross allowed to interview these >political prisoners? Can they receive care packages and >letters thru the Red Cross? I know that sometimes even >the North Vietnamese allowed international Red Cross >workers to visit their POW compounds.
>Wes Fager
These are Prisoners of Faith, not War.
POF and Human Sacrifice as a practice are contrary to the UN ideals, but not to the laws of the United States.
The Red Cross and Amenity International will not be permitted to give succour and protection.
Sad, but true.
<<<oo{ At Constant Cause Over the toronto org.}oo>>> oo>>>{ And sentenced to Death for this SP Act. }<<<oo
["You know, people die if they criticize scientology - I should take care if I were you." -Marcus Nyman, OSA (former GO), $cio-org, Stockholm, Sweden.]
Gregg Hagglund SP4 http://www.cgocable.net/~elrond -- " I'm sure it's obvious to all who read my stuff, that I have serious problems when it comes to being able to communicate." - -RonsAmigo, Official OSA Shill on ARS
On 19 Dec 1997 18:23:35 GMT, indu...@aol.com (Inducto) wrote:
>Maybe because the average staffer wants christmas off, and they know management >will make them work christmas if there are SPs to fight, so their only chance >for some seasonal compassion and enjoyment is to appeal to a.r.s. >Sad if its true.
i have heard every response to this conciliatory note from russ possible without someone responding.
i think the proper response is: hey, thanks for not being an asshole for once. and thanks for being polite. and thanks for having acted like a human being instead of a human rottweiler.
hell, i have heard (after russ was nice for a change) every possible explanation for it (the scienos plan a christmas attack, they intend to use it to regroup, it's evidently an attempt to distract from something, it's an attempt to position critics as anti-santa etc.) except the one right on the surface which is someone decided to make a conciliatory gesture in the middle of an otherwise ugly conflagration.
i fully understand those who say, "well, yes, it's the holidays, but this blow needs to be struck." this may be true in many cases. i really don't expect that scientology or any litigants are going to miss deadlines for filing just because it's the holidays, and some things do need to be done immediately.
but hell, russ shaw isn't the whole of scientology. he is just this guy who posts to ars. afaik he had jack to do with killing lisa mcpherson and his worst crime that i personally know of is a fairly repugnant web page, and i've seen worse.
i declared a cease-fire on scientology myself a couple months ago, because of a seeming change of tone which proved illusory. i have to say i can't really go along with a "cease fire" again myself during the holidays, though i won't go out of my way to be nasty. i'll respond to what comes up.
but we ought to be looking at the right targets for anger, and not just lashing out at anyone even remotely related to scientology whether or not it has any relation to the gripes at hand.
i can't see treating every single person who would call themselves a "scientologist" as an automatic enemy.
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:46:31 GMT, x...@mindspring.com (Rob Clark) saith:
>On 19 Dec 1997 18:23:35 GMT, indu...@aol.com (Inducto) wrote:
>>Maybe because the average staffer wants christmas off, and they know management >>will make them work christmas if there are SPs to fight, so their only chance >>for some seasonal compassion and enjoyment is to appeal to a.r.s.
>>Sad if its true.
>i have heard every response to this conciliatory note from russ possible >without someone responding.
>i think the proper response is: hey, thanks for not being an asshole for once. >and thanks for being polite. and thanks for having acted like a human being >instead of a human rottweiler.
I won't argue with that, Rob. One of our most powerful tools here is to deal with our opponents with humanity.
>hell, i have heard (after russ was nice for a change) every possible explanation >for it (the scienos plan a christmas attack, they intend to use it to regroup, >it's evidently an attempt to distract from something, it's an attempt to >position critics as anti-santa etc.) except the one right on the surface which >is someone decided to make a conciliatory gesture in the middle of an otherwise >ugly conflagration.
[snip]
>but we ought to be looking at the right targets for anger, and not just lashing >out at anyone even remotely related to scientology whether or not it has any >relation to the gripes at hand.
>i can't see treating every single person who would call themselves a >"scientologist" as an automatic enemy.
You make a lot of sense here, Rob. But I can't help agree with people like Deanna, who wrote elsewhere (IIRC) that the Scienos are using this as an opportunity to handle ARS. That if they can talk us into reducing the bandwidth of criticism for a few weeks, they will consider it a Big Win.
Having read opinions on either side of this stand, I want to make the following deal. There are 2 Scieno Offices in Portland: one on Salmon street, the other on Washington - both downtown. I'm going to drive by them at some point Christmas Day, & see if they are open. My criteria is simple: if the lights are on, there's a sign that says ``OPEN" & I see someone inside, I'll consider that office open.
If either one is open for business, & CoS staffers are working to bring up their stats, I'll consider your offer fo a cease-fire insincere. You want us critics to give something, but aren't willing to give something of your own. For there to be a ceae-fire, there has to be a compromise. And all I'm asking is that you give yoru own people the day off. Hopefully with pay - but I won't go around asking for pay stubs, so I'll take you on your word at this.
And if you don't live up to your part of the bargain? My birthday falls on 29 December. As a present, if you don't close AT LEAST the Portland offices so the staffers can have the day off, I'm going to ask for a birthday present. Someone reposting the Babywatch Diaries on Lisa McPherson would be nice. Some of the Hubbard lectures like the ``Implant Station" one, or something else from the Apollo would also be nice. NOTS or the L-series would be super. A high-level Hubbard writing that has yet to be printed on the Internet would make my day!
But only if you made your staffers work.
However ... (curious how there is always a ``however" here) ... however, what if a faithful public needs some attention that day? Or there is some other emergency that requires the CoS to be on site. I have a simple solution for that: if one office is closed in Portland, AND I see a report of at least one other office closed somewhere else in the world, I'll consider that good enough. Heck, the staff at three offices getting a holiday? I consider that worth a cease-fire. And it would be good PR for the CoS organization as a whole!
Chances are quite good that we'll hear about it on ARS. Ted Mayett says he'll drive by his Los Vegas offices. I'm sure curious critics in other cities will take a moment & check on the CoS offices in their cities. And we need TWO offices reported closed for the holiday to keep me from asking for a birthday present.
I see it as a no-brainer. Everyone gets a Big Win. And neither side will lose any ground because we took Christmas off.
Do we have a deal?
Geoff Olympic-Class Bore & has to work on Xmas & New Years'
Return address altered to foil spambots. Change ``cyberpromo" to``agora", & your email will reach me.
On Sat, 20 Dec 1997 02:46:31 GMT, x...@mindspring.com (Rob Clark) wrote:
:i have heard every response to this conciliatory note from russ possible :without someone responding. :i think the proper response is: hey, thanks for not being an asshole for once. :and thanks for being polite. and thanks for having acted like a human being :instead of a human rottweiler. :i declared a cease-fire on scientology myself a couple months ago, because :of a seeming change of tone which proved illusory. i have to say i can't really :go along with a "cease fire" again myself during the holidays, though i won't go :out of my way to be nasty. i'll respond to what comes up. :but we ought to be looking at the right targets for anger, and not just lashing :out at anyone even remotely related to scientology whether or not it has any :relation to the gripes at hand. :i can't see treating every single person who would call themselves a :"scientologist" as an automatic enemy.
Points to Russ, and a Merry Christmas to him indeed. I was just wondering though why Sassie10 and plight joined in too.
In article <349c5eef.4838...@news.zippo.com>, llyw...@cyberpromo.rdrop.com
(Geoff Burling) wrote: > However ... (curious how there is always a ``however" here) ... > however, what if a faithful public needs some attention that day? Or > there is some other emergency that requires the CoS to be on site. I > have a simple solution for that: if one office is closed in Portland, > AND I see a report of at least one other office closed somewhere else > in the world, I'll consider that good enough. Heck, the staff at three > offices getting a holiday? I consider that worth a cease-fire. And it > would be good PR for the CoS organization as a whole!
> Chances are quite good that we'll hear about it on ARS. Ted Mayett > says he'll drive by his Los Vegas offices. I'm sure curious critics in > other cities will take a moment & check on the CoS offices in their > cities. And we need TWO offices reported closed for the holiday to > keep me from asking for a birthday present.
Provided it doesn't rain or snow and isn't bitterly cold, I'll try to take a bicycle ride by the Boston Org on December 25. It's even possible that the AYH group bike ride that I usually join on this holiday will go by the Org.
>>On 19 Dec 1997 18:23:35 GMT, indu...@aol.com (Inducto) wrote:
>>>Maybe because the average staffer wants christmas off, and they know management >>>will make them work christmas if there are SPs to fight, so their only chance >>>for some seasonal compassion and enjoyment is to appeal to a.r.s.
>>>Sad if its true.
>>i have heard every response to this conciliatory note from russ possible >>without someone responding.
>>i think the proper response is: hey, thanks for not being an asshole for once. >>and thanks for being polite. and thanks for having acted like a human being >>instead of a human rottweiler.
>I won't argue with that, Rob. One of our most powerful tools here is >to deal with our opponents with humanity.
>>hell, i have heard (after russ was nice for a change) every possible explanation >>for it (the scienos plan a christmas attack, they intend to use it to regroup, >>it's evidently an attempt to distract from something, it's an attempt to >>position critics as anti-santa etc.) except the one right on the surface which >>is someone decided to make a conciliatory gesture in the middle of an otherwise >>ugly conflagration.
>[snip]
>>but we ought to be looking at the right targets for anger, and not just lashing >>out at anyone even remotely related to scientology whether or not it has any >>relation to the gripes at hand.
>>i can't see treating every single person who would call themselves a >>"scientologist" as an automatic enemy.
>You make a lot of sense here, Rob. But I can't help agree with people >like Deanna, who wrote elsewhere (IIRC) that the Scienos are using >this as an opportunity to handle ARS. That if they can talk us into >reducing the bandwidth of criticism for a few weeks, they will >consider it a Big Win.
>Having read opinions on either side of this stand, I want to make the >following deal. There are 2 Scieno Offices in Portland: one on Salmon >street, the other on Washington - both downtown. I'm going to drive by >them at some point Christmas Day, & see if they are open. My criteria >is simple: if the lights are on, there's a sign that says ``OPEN" & I >see someone inside, I'll consider that office open.
>If either one is open for business, & CoS staffers are working to >bring up their stats, I'll consider your offer fo a cease-fire >insincere. You want us critics to give something, but aren't willing >to give something of your own. For there to be a ceae-fire, there has >to be a compromise. And all I'm asking is that you give yoru own >people the day off. Hopefully with pay - but I won't go around asking >for pay stubs, so I'll take you on your word at this.
>And if you don't live up to your part of the bargain? My birthday >falls on 29 December. As a present, if you don't close AT LEAST the >Portland offices so the staffers can have the day off, I'm going to >ask for a birthday present. Someone reposting the Babywatch Diaries on >Lisa McPherson would be nice. Some of the Hubbard lectures like the >``Implant Station" one, or something else from the Apollo would also >be nice. NOTS or the L-series would be super. A high-level Hubbard >writing that has yet to be printed on the Internet would make my day!
>But only if you made your staffers work.
>However ... (curious how there is always a ``however" here) ... >however, what if a faithful public needs some attention that day? Or >there is some other emergency that requires the CoS to be on site. I >have a simple solution for that: if one office is closed in Portland, >AND I see a report of at least one other office closed somewhere else >in the world, I'll consider that good enough. Heck, the staff at three >offices getting a holiday? I consider that worth a cease-fire. And it >would be good PR for the CoS organization as a whole!
>Chances are quite good that we'll hear about it on ARS. Ted Mayett >says he'll drive by his Los Vegas offices. I'm sure curious critics in >other cities will take a moment & check on the CoS offices in their >cities. And we need TWO offices reported closed for the holiday to >keep me from asking for a birthday present.
>I see it as a no-brainer. Everyone gets a Big Win. And neither side >will lose any ground because we took Christmas off.
>Do we have a deal?
>Geoff >Olympic-Class Bore >& has to work on Xmas & New Years'
>Return address altered to foil spambots. Change ``cyberpromo" >to``agora", & your email will reach me.
While I think expecting ulterior motives from Russ is perfectly reasonable, I personnally pledge not to libel, slander or assault any scientologists on Christmas.
I hardly think this means that Christmas is a festival of lies. Telling the truth about scientology should fit well in any truce worth it's name.
Gee, maybe Russ might try it too.
But then again, they showed themselves just recently in Clearwater, promising no counter demonstrations and delivering on that promise...
With busloads of robot picketers for the police and fire dept. and newspaper..
I don't remember any DA packs by critics on scientologists. Or scientologists being picketed at their homes. Or lawsuits being filed. Or anything but the truth being told.
well, I take that back.. sometimes people get a little carried away, but in general the critical community (wdne) has been very compassionate and reserved.
If scientology can refrain from atrocities for a day it's a bad sign for operation foot-bullet.
Just imagine if they did it 'one day at a time'
They might manage to become a real (if kooky) religion.
