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Warrior  
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 More options Jun 3 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: Warrior <warr...@entheta.net>
Date: 1998/06/03
Subject: Re: Is it true?

In article <359287ae.120690...@news.ping.be>, b...@arcadis.be says...

>No. You are not going to understand anyway, even if I explain it. It's
>a waste of my time. Those perceptive enough will understand what I
>mean.

>Bernie

   The only things I don't understand are those things which are either
insane or not clearly communicated. You failed to communicate your
intention clearly. That's all. I asked for clarification.

Warrior
See http://www.entheta.net/entheta/1stpersn/warrior/

------------------
Spam free Usenet news http://www.newsguy.com


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bc  
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 More options Jun 3 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: dr...@yourown.risk.com (bc)
Date: 1998/06/03
Subject: Re: Is it true?

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

On Tue, 02 Jun 1998 23:16:09 GMT, b...@arcadis.be (Bernie) brewed up
the following, and served it to the group:

>Warrior <warr...@entheta.net> wrote:

<snipped and slightly reformatted for PGP>

>>   I don't understand the statement in the following
>>three lines.  Could you clarify for me?

>No. You are not going to understand anyway, even if I explain
>it. It's a waste of my time. Those perceptive enough will
>understand what I mean.

Bernie, do you *still* not understand why I, and so many others,
find your attitude so incredibly, annoyingly condescending?  Re-read
your previous paragraph.

Warrior has considerably more on the ball than you give him credit
for, as do most everyone else around here.  Why do you insist on
ducking the question?

Or was "improved communication" not one of the "good things" you got
from $cientology?

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=OM7g
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--------
"...she hates her life and what she's done to it
There's one more kid that'll never go to school
Never get to fall in love, never get to be cool"
           --Neil Young

the above e-mail address remains fictional.
the real one is bc9424@spamTHIS!.concentric.net (if you remove spamTHIS!.)
                *SP2(:)*  KoX
                   ...bc...


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Discussion subject changed to "Culling PC folders - A project" by randf
randf  
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 More options Jun 3 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology, alt.clearing.technology
From: "randf" <Randa...@aol.com>
Date: 1998/06/03
Subject: Re: Culling PC folders - A project

William Barwell wrote in message <6l25s3$bl...@Starbase.NeoSoft.COM>...

<...>

Dear Pope,
                     I believe you are quite in the right. The reading of pc
folders by others than auditor, case supervisor, examiner (to ensure proper
"result"-hah!), director of processing and review auditor is clearly against
some of their policies, but conforming with others.
                     I witnessed firsthand the wholesale "culling" of pc
folders for information. This was not necessarily for blackmail purposes:
                     In 1992 I was on staff and on training at th
International Training Org (6331 Hollywood Blvd. 2nd - 5th floors).
As part of executive (FEBC) training, the
folders (preclear, ethics and personnel)
were all sent to the ITO for inspection. After completing the actual
training and internship steps, the candidates would in turn be sent to the
super-secret base - Gold. 99.9% of scientologists do not know where this
place is (but the critics do!).
Accordingly, folders had to meet certain criteria and the prospective
candidate had to be extensively security checked before going to Gold (or
Int, as it was known) and after returning. The pc folders of the people who
had gone up to Int and come back were "vetted"; which is to say, gone
through, page by page, and had references to the location of Int deleted (as
from missed withhold "where?" questions) and possibly other deletions. The
were cut out with a scissor or razor. Apparently the security checkers were
only using one side of a page (out-tech)! I did not actually do this myself
but spent some time as a folder page in the attached HGC (Hubbard Guidance
Center - where scientology processing is performed) and saw and heard these
things. It was pretty commonplace there. No one questioned that it needed to
be done, of course.
The operation was run by Int level messengers.
I never went up to Int and never had this done with my own documents. The
organization still has my folders.

RF

"church of scientology - huge crotch of holy incest" (anagram)


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Discussion subject changed to "Is it true?" by Michael &#39;Mike&#39; Gormez
Michael 'Mike' Gormez  
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 More options Jun 3 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: m...@enturbulate.nu (Michael 'Mike' Gormez)
Date: 1998/06/03
Subject: Re: Is it true?

In article <358c8dbb.35387...@news.ping.be>, b...@arcadis.be (Bernie)
wrote:

>Furthermore, your use of the word "apologist" is incorrect as well. I
>do not try to justify any abuses of the CoS. My use of this example
>only aims to point out to mob reactions based on ignorance,
>demonization and propaganda against minorities. This doesn't mean that
>these minorities do not have something to be blamed on as well. Maybe
>you wish to label scholars who defend the rights of minority religions
>as "apologists" as well, like arsers do.

When Belgian professor Anne Morelli (Institut d'histoire des religions -
- Université Libre de Bruxelles) states that suicide isn't a crime and
uses as example the OST, than yes that person is cleary an (dangerous)
apologist knowing from which position she speaks. This goes beyond
ignorance. (see: http://huizen.dds.nl/~hubbard/holland/hbvl.htm - in
Dutch)

Even CESNUR speaks of homicides and suicides in the case of OST.

Mike
--
Deaths at Flag - http://home.wxs.nl/~mike_gormez/deaths.html
Child Abuse and Neglect? - http://home.wxs.nl/~mike_gormez/childabuse.html
Shortcut to FACTNet files - http://home.wxs.nl/~mike_gormez/factnet.html


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Paul  
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 More options Jun 3 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: Paul <pauldb@REMOVE_ME.seanet.com>
Date: 1998/06/03
Subject: Re: Is it true?

Bernie wrote:

> Paul <pauldb@REMOVE_ME.seanet.com> wrote:

> >People like you, Wolf, can re-enter the market without the interference
> >of any of the various corporate entities of the Church of
> >Scientology[tm].

> I have no interest whatsoever of re-entering Scientology or the
> freezone. I am far beyong that.

Um, I don't think I was talking about you, Bernie, unless you've changed
your name to Wolf.

> >The war is over and the Church of Scientology[tm] has already lost.

> I admire how you try to convince yourself, Paul :-)

Yup, and I've explained why, Bernie.  It is just an opinion, of
course--feel free to disagree.  I must admit to a certain amount of
glee, though, when I envision all of those documents in the public
domain, with the Church of Scientology[tm] helpless to do anything about
it.

-Paul


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Bernie  
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 More options Jun 4 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: b...@arcadis.be (Bernie)
Date: 1998/06/04
Subject: Re: Is it true?

Paul <pauldb@REMOVE_ME.seanet.com> wrote:
>Bernie wrote:

>> Paul <pauldb@REMOVE_ME.seanet.com> wrote:

>> >People like you, Wolf, can re-enter the market without the interference
>> >of any of the various corporate entities of the Church of
>> >Scientology[tm].

>> I have no interest whatsoever of re-entering Scientology or the
>> freezone. I am far beyong that.

>Um, I don't think I was talking about you, Bernie, unless you've changed
>your name to Wolf.

Sorry. Misread that.

Bernie
http://uc2.unicall.be/bernie/home.htm
If you really mean to reform Scn and it's mngmnt
you won't accomplish it with charges of brainwashing,
fools and a dead man's ego (Wolf)


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Wolf  
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 More options Jun 4 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: Wolf <wolft...@micron.net>
Date: 1998/06/04
Subject: Re: Is it true?

David Gerard wrote:

> On Mon, 01 Jun 1998 18:29:43 -0600, Wolf <wolft...@micron.net> wrote:

> Thanks for your analysis/response.

> :The effectiveness of a group like ARS is, imo, not in
> :thinking it can play a part in eliminating Scn, but that it can play a
> :part in edging the group into competing for resources in a fashion that
> :an even larger group of people find acceptable.

> I'd count that as a win.

Me too.


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Discussion subject changed to "Humor vs. Joking & Degrading" by Wolf
Wolf  
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 More options Jun 4 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: Wolf <wolft...@micron.net>
Date: 1998/06/04
Subject: Re: Humor vs. Joking & Degrading

Dave Bird---St Hippo of Augustine wrote:

> Wolf <wolft...@micron.net> writes:
> >If so... you're probably correct. Given the actual lack of experience
> >with Scn that some of the more proliferate posters have, I think my
> >theory of there being a large contigent of "bored, affluent dilletantes"
> >in attendence has some merit.

>  This is the "how do you know heroin is bad if you haven't tried it"
>  school of "thinking", is it?

Ther really aren't any shades of grey in your thought patterns are there
Dave. Pure B&W. Dead Cat = OSA? Suicide = cult death. Dave Bird = bitter
and hopeless?

Wolf


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Discussion subject changed to "Is it true?" by Wolf
Wolf  
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 More options Jun 4 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: Wolf <wolft...@micron.net>
Date: 1998/06/04
Subject: Re: Is it true?

Whether trade secret status is the *only* weapon CofS has is debateable.
In the context of the ARS it certainly is an issue. But I think in the
world of selling Scn it's not as big a deal as you think it is.

> People like you, Wolf, can re-enter the market without the interference
> of any of the various corporate entities of the Church of
> Scientology[tm].

That's the positive side of things isn't it? At least for people like me
;~)
Of course I already know of at least 20 or more people who are very
successfully making a fine living in the Free Zone and not getting any
significant flak from CofS. Now why do you suppose that is?

> The war is over and the Church of Scientology[tm] has already lost.

I think they'll just grow another head. Possibly one with more teeth. I
always liked the Hydra analogy and CofS is not the first to play the
corporate shell game.

Wolf


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Wolf  
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 More options Jun 4 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: Wolf <wolft...@micron.net>
Date: 1998/06/04
Subject: Re: Is it true?

Eric S. Smith: Left-Field Marshal wrote:

> In article <35839fd9.87346...@news.ping.be>, Bernie <b...@arcadis.be> wrote:
> >Wolf <wolft...@micron.net> wrote:
> >>That
> >>by constant pressure you might be having a part in actually growing the
> >>CofS, rather than eliminating it?

> "Okay, honey, that's enough 60 Minutes segments for me.  Let's go join an
>  expensive scam organization!"

Just read in the paper this morning that GM/Chevy trucks rank as #1 in
customer satisfaction. Despite the heavy media attention GM received
about exploding gas tanks. Are you really suprised that negative media
coverage doesn't always cause lowered sales? Do you still eat apples?
Drink coffee? Buy packaged meats? Despite ARS assertions that negative
PR *does* have a negative effect on potential Scn's, the fact is that
media exposure often does little more than raise public awareness that
certain things actually exist. Realize too that excessive criticism
often makes people curious as to what all the ruckus is about. And not
every curious person agrees with the negative PR. Just the musings of
someone who has made a good living selling contentious products and
services for 30 years...

> The CoS may eventually get better at not looking like utter cretins in
> court and the press, but I doubt that they'll have a big renaissance
> and become wildly popular around the world.  Whatever the efficacy of
> criticism in this and other places, there's still the fundamental
> "Hubbard made it up as he went along" problem.

They look like cretins to you Eric, but then you're hardly open-minded
are you? If it were that simple then no religion would ever get out of
the starting gate. I disagree that "Hubbard made it all up" is as big a
stumbling block as you think it is. It's fundamental that any person
predisposed to skepticism will point that out - whatever the truth of it
is - but you're not in the majority... at least as far as I can tell.

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Wolf  
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 More options Jun 4 1998, 3:00 am
Newsgroups: alt.religion.scientology
From: Wolf <wolft...@micron.net>
Date: 1998/06/04
Subject: Re: Is it true?