In article <33DA0EF1.5...@worldnet.att.net>,

Precisely.  The figure reported might as well be "90% of people who
willingly stay to the end of the counselling will be successfully
recovered from the cult."  Then there are another 23% who insist they
wish to leave; they are failures whether you let them leave or not.

                                            |~/           |~/
~~|;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;'^';-._.-;||';-._.-;'^';||_.-;'^'0-|~~
P |      Woof Woof, Glug Glug               ||____________||      0  | P
O |   Who Drowned the Judge's Dog?          | . . . . . . . '----. 0 | O
O |         answers on                  *---|_______________  @__o0  | O
L |<a href="news:alt.religion.scientology"></a>_____________|/_______| L
and<a href="http://www.xemu.demon.co.uk/clam/lynx/q0.html"></a>XemuSP4(:)

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----

[posted/mailed]

Here's the dilemma as I see it: to the German Govt.
Scientologist=someone who wants to take over the Government and
replace it with a Scientology institution, by any means necessary.
Germany bases their opinions of all Scientologists on the
totalitarian overtones present in some of Scientology's teachings and
on the criminal convictions of some high-level Scientologists in
other countries.

The problem with this is that I think it's a horrendously overbroad
generalisation. I think a significant proportion of Scientologists
don't hold this revolutionary view. It takes a certain amount of
study of Scientology scripture before someone can "cog" that
"clearing the planet" is so important that it's perfectly "ethical"
to use any means necessary to further this goal. I don't know how
many Scientologists even realise that such a view is held and
encouraged by the top brass of the Co$. They don't go looking for it
the way critics do.

It _might_ be okay if the focus of this disclosure was solely the
branch of OSA responsible for infiltration and other fun and illegal
activities. Including everyone who's so much as used LRH technology
is going way overboard IMHO. It assumes anyone who's so much as come
into contact with Dianetics wants to subvert the Government.

Eh? Could you please check the spelling on that last one?

Careful. There's plenty of room for variation of what someone can
believe about "mind control". Even if it is "fallacious"(are you sure
that's the right word? It has a different meaning to the words
"false" and "inaccurate"), not all theories are the same. I think Ted
Patrick asserted that cult brainwashing was irresistable. Hassan
doesn't. bc bases his opinion on his own subjective experience with
the TRs. William Barwell considers Milgram's experiment on obedience
to authority the basis of mind control. Monica and Dennis had a
fairly large disagreement on the issue of personal responsibility in
joining a cult.

Precision in criticism is very important.

Oh, I can rationalise that in seconds. Clearly the methods used to
pry someone away from a mindcontrolling cult should be the least
restrictive available as we don't want to use the same methods of our
enemies. Conservatorshps further restrict the rights of an individual
when our goal should be to _return_ the right to free thought that
was stolen by the cult. Exit counselling and education on which
groups practise thought reform techniques will be able to achieve
those goals.

Does that sound like plausible reasoning to you?

You're wandering into dangerous ground here. I dislike the idea that
a theory should be condemned because of the more extreme conclusions
that can be drawn from it. That's what prompted Germany to get tough
on individual Scientologists. I find your (grudging?) acceptance that
Steve Hassan didn't clearly approve of legal conservatorships
interesting. Do I detect an initial, automatic assumption of guilt?

Zed
Xenu Remailer for a.r.s.:
http://www.magna.com.au/~zed/remailer.html

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: 2.6.3ia
Charset: cp850

iQEVAwUBM9zgWisxIzhyTOOxAQFhFwf/WlFezGFJJ69PmaAlW3Hmuk712bE0jkSO
OtrCGb2l2sXC7vmTir0TrMeDg4/aeHfYNHWPq3k/6TMkNlft4uVMd9YTknhcoU5g
9uT4ABlSAPj9ZCF6QbJinQ+kSP4SuI5s7jQ0zNKI8naL8CR4ksHTHOTUhkaOgJto
0w2f/v1UZZ8DdHqalLnMU8hL48Rg1BrJSy51oeCz92WvbdWpigvO11IW8PMOeXQv
m1b7KwJDRUdi+u1HeuTugcW066gIlp0MjXyB1BtCvSl71WnK+QgPfgubjXrTZUCP
AEUYyQEoD3DQrL88zKSeCi9G5npVWOoIMGyhCXBFQt/9ZSkRi0YuYA==
=66m6
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

In article <5rhhg2$8e...@snews2.magna.com.au>,

I'm not at all sure that this is unreasonable. After all, it's
not *that* long ago that applications for visitors visas to
the USA asked whether the applicant was or ever had been a
member of the Communist Party. The assumption was the same -
that Communists were planning on undermining the US govt in
some way.

Perhaps not, but in an organization as rigidly totalitarian as
Scientology, they would have to be aware that the cult is more
than capable of insisting that it's members do whatever is asked
of them in the name of 'clearing the planet', and if that means
putting the interests of their "religion" before their employer,
particularly when their employer is the state - well, there have
been more than enough of them quite happy to do it in the past.
More than enough to justify concern over the issue.

I disagree. I think there's more than enough reason to assume
that OSA can put pressure on any actively practicing scientologist
to get information - and has a sufficiently coercive lever to
induce many, perhaps most, to produce the sort of information
that they need. So while it's unlikely that all Scientologists
will be attempting to undermine the state at any given time,
when the organization needs information, they have ways of
getting it directly, via zealous devotion - and if that doesn't
work, blackmail.

Consequently, I think its perfectly reasonable for them to be
asked if they are members. It shouldn't stop them getting jobs,
but it *should* alert employers to the potential risks that
they present and make them think twice about where they actually
locate them.

Peter Mc posted:>>Perhaps not, but in an organization as rigidly
totalitarian as
Scientology, they would have to be aware that the cult is more
than capable of insisting that it's members do whatever is asked
of them in the name of 'clearing the planet', and if that means
putting the interests of their "religion" before their employer,
particularly when their employer is the state - well, there have
been more than enough of them quite happy to do it in the past.
More than enough to justify concern over the issue.<<

  I really hold no candle for discriminating against anyone because of
their religious beliefs but I will say that there is room for debate upon
the issue in any country as regards scientology.
1. The basic philosophy embraced by a religious adherent.  For the most
part the basic philosophies of religiou believers are well known or easily
discoverable and have to do with the spiritual activites of the person.
  Scientology, on the other hand, make no bones about the fact that
governments on earth are corrupt evil entities and that ANYTHING that cuts
across scientology is an enemy. The ultimate loyalty is to the expansion
of scientology.
2. Scientlogy is convinced that their answers to any sort of problem are
THE answers.
  Would you put someone in charge of your country's Atomic Energy
Safeguards who thinks that all thats needed is some purification rundowns
and auditing and radiation wont affect them? Or someone in charge of the
country's justice system who thinks that rape victims "pulled it in"?

  The problem with Scientology's "religiosity" is that it is a cover for a
straightforward mechanical/philosophical framework that in structure
resembles marxism (IMHO). The fact that it is a "religion" in the USA
doesn't necessarily mean that it is a religion period.
  Its also a point that just because certain parts of scientology deal
with the soul it doesn;t mean that all of it is religious any more than
Christian Banking would be religious.

 I dont think scientology should be proscribed but I do think that by
opting to follow its tenets and beliefs one is expressing an animosity to
democratic government and human rights that should preclude them being
employed in the public sector where, after all, we are paying people to
safeguard those rights.

Funny you bring this up.  The COS never went in trying to "take over"
Germany.  They just wanted to go about their business of saving the
world :-)

   Enter CCHR. Their business is finding and exposing psychiatric
abuses and frauds.  A few years ago CCHR they investigated, reported,
lobbied and eventually stopped the "Deep Sleep" thereapy in Chelmsford
Australia (New Zealand?).  OK, the psych hospital got closed down, big
investigation by the govt. and the head shrink blew his brains out.

This kind of stuff happens a lot.  There was a lot of shit from the
Italian govt. a few years ago and guess what?  CCHR was working on
exposing and closing dismal psych hospitals there too.

A couple years ago, according to COS, the FBI solicited CCHRs help in
getting information on National Medical Enterprises (NME) psychiatric
hospitals.  The Feds raided NMEs offices and confiscated thousands of
documents as evidence of insurance fraud on psychiatric cases.  Bottom
line, NME paid at least $150 Million in fines and eventually divested
itself of psychiatric profit centers.

Enough of the examples, here's the point: The COS is making enemies
with a very rich profession, PSYCHIATRY.  

Where did psychiatry originate?  Germany?  I wonder what CCHR is doing
to investigate German psychiatry.  I wonder how close they are getting
to the truth?  I wonder how many people there are scared?  What
skeletons are in the closet?  It's funny, the more CCHR nails psych
abuses, the more they expose govt. and psych corruption, the stronger
the attacks that appear from "other areas".

I remember in 1977, the COS's Freedom Magazine came out with a big
front page story about how the U.S. Army experimented with
halucinogenic (sp?) drugs on their own personel, in the early 50's.

Shortly after that they were raided by the FBI in Los Angeles, for
stealing documents.  Coincidence?  Maybe.  BTW, since the documents
were obtained via the Freedom of Information act AND they used their
own paper they were conviced of stealing electricity (copier). And
since it was more than two persons it was a _conspiracy_ to steal
electricity.

It's amazing how violent the reaction can be when you expose the
truth.  Just look how organized all this hate is against the COS.  The
church is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination but come
on...organized protests, elaborate web sites, large scale distribution
of confidential material?  Anti Scientology measures in German
government?

There is more at work here than just a bunch of disgruntled ex-cult
members.  Remember Jim Jones and the Cool Aid 900?  How about those
suicide comet space men with no balls?  Ya don't hear much about them
anymore and neither of those two groups got nearly the bad mouthing
that Scientology is getting.

Scientology is stepping on some powerful toes.  Toes of men who wish
to control more of the world than they already do.  Men who control
the ingredients of your food, those who decide which drugs you can
receive, those who control the idiocy level of mindless TV programing,
those who control just what you are taught and not taught from grade
school to college, those who control just what is broadcast on the
evening news, those who decide which 3rd world country gets what arms
shipment, and yes, those who desire to control the world population by
controling the opinions and thinking; and use psychiatry as the means
of doing so.

Think about this, the next time you hear some bad stuff about
Scientology, "I wonder who is _really_ behind this campaign."

Later folks

Leny

Welcome back Leny, you've not posted anything for quite awhile. You came
into Scn thru Narconon, or was it CCHR? I'm assuming this is the same
"Leny" that was active for Scn here a few years back?

Hubbard certainly had something special in mind as regards control of
Germany. And the OSA documents about it were seized during the German
raid in the 80's.

Dream on again. CCHR is just a front group for bashing psychs. I should
know, I helped set up the DC chapter in the late 60's. They have no real
concern about abuses or reforms, or the plight of the mentally will.
Hubbard thought if he bashed the mental health community enough he might
be able to shake down the govt and get govt money for his "tech".  

Do you have some other source for that claim, other than your Freedom
rag?

More hype. Do you have some government documentation of this CCHR/FBI
task force victory?  Since the case is over, you should not have any
difficulty documenting this claim and obtaining the files to
substantiate it. I think you are simply huffing.

Scientology is making a lot of enemies with many groups and individuals,
rich and poor alike. They are really professionals in that regard.

Going on Hubbard's maxim that Scientology thrives when it is under
attack, that certainly does not appear to be the case in Germany, does
it?

Nothing new about that and Scientology certainly did not have any
"exclusive" on that information.  Hubbard did a lot of
self-experimentation with hallucinogenic drugs in the 50's. Now THAT
would be a great story for the Freedom tabloid.

The documents that the GO stole were investigative files on Scientology
and were NOT obtained via the FOIA. There were dozens of GO agents
involved in this criminal activity and Scn lawyers acknowledged, in the
stipulation, that at all times Hubbard was in control of the GO. He only
managed to skip being indicted because of the extreme measures Scn took
to hide him from government agents, and getting his wife to take the rap
for him.

Your naivety and ignorance comes as no great shock. You've been
indoctrinated quite effectively.

OSA's final valuable products are the continued growth of organizational
paranoia and the creation of enemies to fight. Their stats are really
soaring.

Yes, Leny. And pretty soon the unmarked black helicopters will be
landing at Gold, to round up at the execs and take them into custody for
ECT and psychosurgery, and reverse processing on Hubbard's secret tech.
Watch your back and be careful about strangers who offer you food or
snacks.  

Give it up now. The conspiracy against Hubbard and his org is just too
big to resist.

Joe

[snip of some "different" perspectives]

Let's see, Jim Jones and his cult are no longer here. Applewhite and his
cult are no longer here. Jim Jones was a singular event that appealed to
poverty striken people and those from "minority" races. Applewhite
appealed to those that were willing to believe that there was this
biblical spaceship waiting to take them away. Bad mouthing? Well,
obviously you don't hang out too much on a.r.s. because I recall
recently that there were a few threads going about Jones and the
surrounding hoopla (political and otherwise). Applewhite's group is just
too damn uncomfortable for anyone to talk about. Those people were very
normal before they got involved. And that there was just a few of them
their bio's were easy to dig up and publish. Nothing spectacular there
at all. Rather difficult to bad mouth people that didn't have a mean
bone in their bodies, weren't following any organizations orders to
supress information or to silence critics. Although Jones made a good
attempt to do so...but that all ended with Jones being gone. I find your
"spin" on what you think is happening with Co$ to be amusing. Kinda
reminds me of when all the hoopla was going on about Werner...and how
Werner Erhard "accused" Co$ of "doing him in" and I recall that there is
some meantion of a "death threat" or two that was publicized. You
wouldn't know anything about that though would you? And for you
information -- if it wasn't for a psychiatrist my daughter would not be
getting the help that she needs and no damn dictionary in a Co$
classroom would help her with what is going on. Unless the Co$ has a
magic cure for dyslexia...or is it more ignore the condition like I've
been hearing for the past six months? It's all in your head...it's not
really happening...you can wish this all away...if that was so, Co$
wouldn't exist. I would have wished them and a few other groups away...

 [snip]

right. Say it enough times you might actually get someone to believe you
somewhere...great tactic although it is starting to wear a bit on the
thin side around here with me. And I can't wait for someone to tell you
to "publish" these facts of yours...since we have to do this most of the
time I expect that the same people will demand this out of you. -pam

Read the "stipulation of evidence". That way you would sound less...
shall we say, uninformed? Entering government offices after office-time
using tools plus placing microphones and using false government IDs surely
mounts to more than "stealing electricity"?  

I know, i know.. that what you utter is the cult-line, and you even make
a mess out of that, too!  Jon Atack was told that the GO people -
including Hubbard's third wive (scientology can help you with that!) -
were convicted for "theft of photocopy paper." The same said a dutch
scientologist one or two years ago. So if you've to spread the cult-line,
do it proper please.

Think the "stipulation" is on:  http://superlink.net/user/mgarde/

If not I'll mail it to you.

Blessed are the ignorant - Mike