Let's try to simplfiy this debate and find some common ground, shall we? Instead of working backwards from what we know happened, let's work forwards from the start of things.
Forget about what we already know about Yunohana in Otaru, and Sebido in Hamamatsu and all of that. Forget about the CERD and "Japanese Only" signs. Simply pretend, instead, that you run a business consulting service and one day you get a phone call from an onsen owner:
"Hello. I've got a problem that I'd like your advice on. Drunk Russian sailors are misbehaving in my onsen. I've seen a drop in my usual customers since this started happening. What should I do?"
I'd like to see anyone interested in this discussion respond with what advice they would offer the caller.
As for me, I'd suggest that they ban customers from bringing in alcoholic beverages, and also prohibit those who are drunk from entering. And I'd recommend they put up multilingual signs, or at least Russian signs, explaining Japanese bathing manners.
Sounds like a start to me. Any comments or alternate advice?
---
Scott T. Hards
President
HobbyLink Japan (www.hlj.com)
Scott: Your scenario would normally be reasonable enough, except how do
you run drunk tests at the entrance to the onsen.
What happens if someone gets violent when told he is drunk.
And if there has been trouble in the past, how do you stop the loss of
Japanese customers, other than by making it clear that there is no chance
of any more trouble.
But on top of this is the fact that we are not dealing with sophisticated
people who might be persuaded to do what you suggest.
We are dealing with ordinary, boondocks Japanese who have gut reactions to
gut situations.
On top of this is the fact that I now find they have been pestered by the
moralists for the best part of a decade.
What's more the moralists are clearly on an ego kick - trying to make
themselves famous by pestering the Otaru people.
And thanks to the DFS site, I now rediscover just how unbalance these
peoples are, that one of them at least has a racist contempt for the
Japanese - telling JETS to be cunning, Machievellian, deceitful etc in
their efforts to educate the Japanese in Western values, while he himself
pretends to be an innocent victim of Japanese racism.
He and his mates also have an obsessive desire to ignore obvious facts
like the activities of Chinese and Korean crime gangs here, in their
determination to prove not just onsen but Japan generally hates the
foreigners.
On top of all this are the insults, inaccuracies and slander that I have
to put up from them in their book and which even sensible commentators
like Jef Kingston have been lured into accepting as fact.
. .
Sorry if I sound emotional in response to your very moderate question, but
taken together, it is not a pretty scene and I do not see why any of us
should have to put up with it.
>Let's try to simplfiy this debate and find some common ground, shall >we? Instead of working backwards from what we know happened, let's >work forwards from the start of things.
>Forget about what we already know about Yunohana in Otaru, and Sebido >in Hamamatsu and all of that. Forget about the CERD and "Japanese >Only" signs. Simply pretend, instead, that you run a business >consulting service and one day you get a phone call from an onsen owner:
>"Hello. I've got a problem that I'd like your advice on. Drunk >Russian sailors are misbehaving in my onsen. I've seen a drop in my >usual customers since this started happening. What should I do?"
>I'd like to see anyone interested in this discussion respond with what >advice they would offer the caller.
>As for me, I'd suggest that they ban customers from bringing in >alcoholic beverages, and also prohibit those who are drunk from >entering. And I'd recommend they put up multilingual signs, or at >least Russian signs, explaining Japanese bathing manners.
>Sounds like a start to me. Any comments or alternate advice?
>---
>Scott T. Hards
>President
>HobbyLink Japan (www.hlj.com)
Gregory Clark
Head, Research Japan Office
S603 Ark Hills Executive Tower
1-14-5 Akasaka
Minato-ku, Tokyo
107-0052
Tel: 03-3586-4147
Fax: 03-3586-4148
www.gregoryclark.net www.gregoryclark.net/nakadaki
interestingly, the below quote contains inaccuracies itself :-)
Quote: On top of all this are the insults, inaccuracies and slander that I have to put up from them in their book and which even sensible commentators like Jef Kingston have been lured into accepting as fact. Unquote
"them"? "their" book?
Quite a while ago, I pointed that out to the author of above quote, but without effect, it seems.
Gregory Clark wrote: > Scott: Your scenario would normally be reasonable enough, except how do > you run drunk tests at the entrance to the onsen.
There are small electronic devices that indicate that, i got one 4 years ago for 700 yen (seven hundred yen).
> What happens if someone gets violent when told he is drunk.
What happens if someone gets violent when told he is white, so he should not enter? Consider whatever answer you give to that as an answer to your question.
>...pretend, instead, that you run a business >consulting service and one day you get a phone call from an onsen >owner:
>"Hello. I've got a problem that I'd like your advice on. Drunk >Russian sailors are misbehaving in my onsen. I've seen a drop in my >usual customers since this started happening. What should I do?"
>I'd like to see anyone interested in this discussion respond with what >advice they would offer the caller.
I believe the group already decided that the best course of action would be to post a "Members Only" sign. More important, what advice would you offer an onsen owner who called to say, "There is a group of moralists who are trying to make an example of racial discrimination of my onsen. What should I do?"
> More important, what advice
> would you offer an onsen owner who called to say, "There is a group
> of moralists who are trying to make an example of racial discrimination
> of my onsen. What should I do?"
I think it's quite telling that neither you, nor Prof. Clark, have come up with the obvious answer to this one:
Let them enter like any normal customers and thus destroy the entire basis for their claim.
---
Scott T. Hards
President
HobbyLink Japan (www.hlj.com)
In retrospect that might have been he smart thing to do. Certainly it
would have been better than being dragged through the courts.
At the time though, the onsen people probably felt they were being
confronted by a group of annoying people who were trying to make them look
stupid for their very justified efforts to keep out drunken Russians. And
even though those people were annoying and pedantic, they probably did not
think they would go so far as to resort to court action.
Please do not get me wrong on all this. I too dislike strongly signs that
say No Foreigners. If I saw one I would do all I could to get rid of it. Apart from anything else, it could well trigger a rash of such signs.
Japanese attitudes to foreigners are very ambiguous and volatile. They can
switch from genuine kindness and admiration to gut dislike and contempt
quite easily. At the moment they are in a kindness phase but it was not
always so. That is why I get upset by moralists who go out of their way to
humiliate Japanese who do have a genuine complaint against foreigners.
They too could trigger a wave of anti-foreign sentiment.
We are guests in this country and should not forget it, even if the head
moralist lectures strongly against the evil of 'guestism,' i.e. showing
respect for the rules and customs of this nation.
If it was me, I would try to find the basis for the anti-foreigner
prejudice, and counter it somehow. True, it might be very hard to
counter, as with the drunken Russians ( handing out flyers instructing
Russians how to use the bath, and by the way,advising them to sober up
somewhere between the wharf and the bathhouse does not seem very
effective.)
I like the suggestion that seeming undesirables be given a language test
at the door. If they fail, give them a slip of paper in English or their
own language explaining why knowledge of Japanese is important for correct
use of the premises. People can hardly cry racial discrimination over
that. IN any case, it seems a lot better and more realistic than telling
people to get out because they are grubby or drunk.
Since those who pass the language test would almost by definition be
people suitable for entry you go even further in getting rid of the
seeming racial basis for the discrimination.
Not that I oppose race or nationality being used as a basis for necessary
discriminations (the UN convention on the topic is plain stupid, and is
being violated daily by large and responsible governments). But certainly
in the case of Japan with its inherently exclusivist tendencies, it should
be used sparingly.
(Incidentally, when White Australia wanted to keep out undesirables it
gave them a language test, but in Gaelic, to make sure they would be kept
out. The system broke down only once, when they tried to keep out a
Marxist UK professor who just happened to be an expert in Gaelic.)
My objection to the moralists is that they made no effort to find a
sensible solution to the problem. They seemed far more interested in
giving themselves an ego trip and turning themselves into bathhouse heros.
Either that, or they have a gut dislike of the Japanese, and were
determined to expose them as inherently anti-foreign.
That extraordinary JET speech by the head moralist , and his happy posting
that a bathhouse which had suffered 800,000 yens worth of damage still had
no right to exclude drunken Russians, gives the clue as to what these
people were really about.
>> More important, what advice
>> would you offer an onsen owner who called to say, "There is a group
>> of moralists who are trying to make an example of racial discrimination
>> of my onsen. What should I do?"
>I think it's quite telling that neither you, nor Prof. Clark, have come
>up with the obvious answer to this one:
>Let them enter like any normal customers and thus destroy the entire
>basis for their claim.
>---
>Scott T. Hards
>President
>HobbyLink Japan (www.hlj.com)
Gregory Clark
Head, Research Japan Office
S603 Ark Hills Executive Tower
1-14-5 Akasaka
Minato-ku, Tokyo
107-0052
Tel: 03-3586-4147
Fax: 03-3586-4148
www.gregoryclark.net www.gregoryclark.net/nakadaki
If you will read the original post; Mr. Hards was not asking about your opinion regarding the moral fiber of the people you have just attempted a character assassination upon. In fact, Mr. Hards specifically asked you to forget about the background information and focus upon the situation itself from a purely abstract and detatched point of view. However, since you seem to like circular arguments, let us continue then.
"What happens if someone gets violent when told he is drunk."
-Personally, I would call the police as is expected by law in such a situation. And please, whomever, do not be so childish as to ask for specific articles of Japanese law; vigilantiism is not acceptable in Japan.
"And if there has been trouble in the past, how do you stop the loss of
Japanese customers, other than by making it clear that there is no chance of any more trouble. "
-Obviously if there were as much trouble as you seem to imply, there would be a rash of businesses following the example of those in question. However, since these are isolated instances and not the norm, as it were, it would be a fair assumption that the barring of foreigners is reactionary and against Japanese mores. You have argued in the past that such practices are part of Japanese culture and therefore to be tolerated but this is a weak argument at best. I fail to see how you, I, or any one person can be the authority on all things "Japanese". Culture and the mores of the public, of any nation, are determined by reasonable and prudent behavior. Clearly, since not even a bare fraction of the Japanese population or businesses evinces such anti-foreign convictions then it is in fact NOT a part of real Japanese culture and therefore not representative of anything other than one business owner's predaliction to dislike foreign-looking individuals.
Additionally, if you are in touch with Japanese culture as much as you profess to be; you will be familiar with the phrase "the nail that sticks out gets hammered in". In this case, the aberrant behavior of barring individuals that don't pass your ideal customer specifications is against Japanese culture and therefore "sticks out" as it does not conform with the regular social mores of the culture.
Personally, I feel that a great deal of the methodology behind forced assimilation to prominent Japanese mores is brought about by passive-aggressive behavior (exhibited by the individuals that tried for over a year to force their changes upon the onsens). I may not agree with their single-mindedness nor do I possess the tenacity or patience that they have exhibited through the long process. An NGO already exists that is working with the Japanese government to produce anti-discrimination/anti-racism law; I believe that the individuals involved in these onsen disputes would have been better served by working through existing entities rather than making a spectacle. I may not like their methods but I must applaud the results.
As for the "poor" onsen owner. His losses are just that, his losses. When someone opens a business to the public (not a private club or some such), one takes the chance that the business will fail, be damaged, go under for whatever reason. A reasonable and prudent person protects themselves. This person had the misfortune to become involved in the fledgling beginnings of a Japanese civil-rights movement (of a sort) and may be viewed as the first casualty of the "old guard" (those people that resist change). We do not have to agree with the change but we must follow established social norms of the society in which we live. Obviously, barring foreigners is no longer a part of established Japanese society or the courts would have found the onsen owners innocent.
1/ the onsen in question had never suffered damage from Russian sailors. 2/ the city did little or nothing to ameliorate the problem, despite years of pressure and lobbying
You said
" the onsen people probably felt they were being confronted by a group of annoying people who were trying to make them look stupid for their very justified efforts to keep out drunken Russians. "
Not at all. The annoying people, as you say, were trying to reinforce the valid point that the vast majority of foreigners are NOT drunken Russians. They did NOT want to open the onsen to drunk Russians. In fact, they suggested many potentially effective ways to keep out drunken Russians, all of which were rejected by the onsen.
Perhaps this statement from your post is the most telling;
"We are guests in this country and should not forget it"
Do you still consider yourself a guest here, in spite of having lived here for, what is it, 20 or more years, marrying a Japanese lady, raising a family here, purchasing property, and so on? These are not the acts of a guest, but of a resident. The 'head moralizer' as you call him, even went so far as to take out Japanese citizenship in order to cement his ties with Japan. Many others have been here far longer (the C.W. Nichols of the world spring to mind). We are not guests.
Let's try to keep both the character assassination and the 'big picture' arguments aside for a while, shall we? It does no-one any good to continually cloud the waters with so many issues, and it creates a kind of intellectual juggling act that is hard to follow.
>1/ the onsen in question had never suffered damage from Russian
>sailors.
>2/ the city did little or nothing to ameliorate the problem, despite
>years of pressure and lobbying
>You said
>" the onsen people probably felt they were being confronted by a group
>of annoying people who were trying to make them look stupid for their
>very justified efforts to keep out drunken Russians. "
>Not at all. The annoying people, as you say, were trying to reinforce
>the valid point that the vast majority of foreigners are NOT drunken
>Russians. They did NOT want to open the onsen to drunk Russians. In
>fact, they suggested many potentially effective ways to keep out
>drunken Russians, all of which were rejected by the onsen.
>Perhaps this statement from your post is the most telling;
>"We are guests in this country and should not forget it"
>Do you still consider yourself a guest here, in spite of having lived
>here for, what is it, 20 or more years, marrying a Japanese lady,
>raising a family here, purchasing property, and so on? These are not
>the acts of a guest, but of a resident. The 'head moralizer' as you
>call him, even went so far as to take out Japanese citizenship in order
>to cement his ties with Japan. Many others have been here far longer
>(the C.W. Nichols of the world spring to mind). We are not guests.
>Let's try to keep both the character assassination and the 'big
>picture' arguments aside for a while, shall we? It does no-one any
>good to continually cloud the waters with so many issues, and it
>creates a kind of intellectual juggling act that is hard to follow.
Gregory Clark
Head, Research Japan Office
S603 Ark Hills Executive Tower
1-14-5 Akasaka
Minato-ku, Tokyo
107-0052
Tel: 03-3586-4147
Fax: 03-3586-4148
www.gregoryclark.net www.gregoryclark.net/nakadaki
> Let them enter like any normal customers and thus destroy the entire
basis for their claim.
My hat is off to you, Scott. I like that idea. That tactic would have really gotten their goat. I guess the owner's stubbornness clouded his thinking (and mine).
